Real Mesa TC100 vs AF3 into guitar cab - looking for advice

I'd prefer the flexibility to run in stereo, the PS2 is mono only. How about the Fryette LX II? Seems to be designed with modelling in mind, so I assume power amp modelling should likely remain on, right? Anyone have any experience with this unit? The description on their website certainly sounds appealing:

"Once you hear a modeling amplifier with a real tube power amp pushing the speakers, you'll instantly understand why a digital signal path can't duplicate the complex relationship between a power tube and the speakers. The LX II's "Linear" mode provides a full-range, flat-response signal from your amp to your speaker cabinet, while the "Enhanced" mode brings the color and life to your tone that you would expect from a Fryette power amp."
 
Thomas Obester said:
Actually, I am now getting to the point, where I think more and more about using in-Ears for obvious reasons, after all this years of playing at super high DB´s :sweatsmile:

It was Roman Šoltys from Klakson studios - do you know him ?

Cheers,
Tomas
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Sadly I do not know him, it seems that I have missed that, I would hear some of his work.

In Ears are a real pleasure and joy to play.
I got some custom molded with some optimal ambience filter if needed and they are just perfect.

Cheers
Sash
 
Space Helicopter said:
You guys are making me want to get a power station, every other month or so I start looking into them (especially tempting as I could also use them with my tube amps) then I play with the matrix and realise I’m very happy with the sound at the moment, and I forget about it for a time.

The speaker page is indeed very important, and probably not worth the time-sink of just moving controls via trial-and-error if you’re trying to match a specific amp/cab setup. I measured my cab impedence curve and modeled its general shape in the axe and it helps a ton. It’s not just the low res frequency and Q that is important, but the high res frequency and slope make a huge difference to the mids and highs response.

I sometimes run my rectifier into a reactive load I built (the impedence curve is also matched to my physical cab’s impedence curve) and reamp though the matrix into the cab, so I can do post-effects (since recto FX loop sucks) and so I can turn up the master without deafening myself. If I match volumes, recto > cab sounds the same as recto > load > matrix gt1000fx > cab, so I assume the matrix is very flat.

Though it would be nice to see it’s frequency response plot using a speaker cabinet as a load. I’ve seen people plot the frequency response using a resistive load (and it’s dead flat in that situation) but not in its actual use-case, into a cab.
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can you share the method you ussd to measure your speaker cab's impedance curve? - still unsure if I've measured mine
correctly with "rattle test" method.
 
I am really following this thread. I have been using a Matrix GT1000 to power a Xitone 1x12 with pretty positive results. I also send a signal sometimes without cab emulation to a 2x12 V30 cab. I have found that for heavier style music the AITR heavyness and crunch are not there with the V30's. I suspect the Matrix amp but I'm still troubleshooting. Are you guys using the Fryette amps with traditional cabs only or FRFR also ?
 
sprint said:
can you share the method you ussd to measure your speaker cab's impedance curve? - still unsure if I've measured mine
correctly with "rattle test" method.
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That really only approximates the low resonant frequency but doesn’t tell you anything about the Q, or any of the high end inductance.

I used Room Eq Wizard which is free, and they have a page on their site showing how to do an impedence sweep
https://www.roomeqwizard.com/help/help_en-GB/html/impedancemeasurement.html

You will need to build a little tool to do the measuring.

Another alternative is the Dayton audio DATS which is a hardware device so you don’t have to make anything, and I believe comes with the required software.

Once you have the plot if your cab the next hard part is getting that into the axe as the speaker page only shows where 20hz, 200hz, 2khz, 20khz is, and has no vertical scale.

I just screenshot the speaker page in axe edit and used photoshop to overlay the real cab impedence curve, and resized to line up those frequencies, then adjusted in axe edit and went back and fourth a couple times until I felt it was close enough.

Alternatively I think I have seen Cliff take the DATS file from someone and calculate the settings for the axe FX but probably he couldn’t do it if he’s busy.
 
Space Helicopter said:
That really only approximates the low resonant frequency but doesn’t tell you anything about the Q, or any of the high end inductance.

I used Room Eq Wizard which is free, and they have a page on their site showing how to do an impedence sweep
https://www.roomeqwizard.com/help/help_en-GB/html/impedancemeasurement.html

You will need to build a little tool to do the measuring.

Another alternative is the Dayton audio DATS which is a hardware device so you don’t have to make anything, and I believe comes with the required software.

Once you have the plot if your cab the next hard part is getting that into the axe as the speaker page only shows where 20hz, 200hz, 2khz, 20khz is, and has no vertical scale.

I just screenshot the speaker page in axe edit and used photoshop to overlay the real cab impedence curve, and resized to line up those frequencies, then adjusted in axe edit and went back and fourth a couple times until I felt it was close enough.

Alternatively I think I have seen Cliff take the DATS file from someone and calculate the settings for the axe FX but probably he couldn’t do it if he’s busy.
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Thanks - will look into roomeqwizard
 
Lots of interesting experiences and insight here.
I have not tried a Matrix power amp in quite a few years. I'm using a Crown K2 (which is a boat anchor) in my basement.
I gig with FRFR, so the 4x12 cab experience is only for my home enjoyment.
I'm going to add (and I'm not downing Matrix amps AT ALL), but I tried one of the early Matrix GT800s and found it boxey and lacking 'aliveness'.
At the time I also had an ART SLA-2, and it sounded much bigger and fuller than the Matrix - so I didn't keep it. I'm guessing this was 7 years ago, so things have likely changed with the Matrix amps, but I did have a similar experience to what a lot of you are describing. Could have been user error...don't know.

That said, I am able to get my Crown VERY close to sounding like my Marshall power amp. Is it identical? No. But is it close enough that 5 minutes into a rehearsal, there is no way I'd know which one I was playing - yes.

Many of us (myself very much included) are super critical of small differences, but when you put them in a band context, you can't hear them anymore.
Just food for thought.
 
sprint said:
o boy - way back, I started with an SLA2 (or 1 - can't remember which), then traded up to Rocktron Velocity 300, then traded up to Matrix - lol!
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I had the 'bigger' wattage one...I think it was the SLA2. I was very surprised, but the ART sounded better. Matrix could go louder, but did not seem to have as wide of a spectrum. Again, could it have been user error....maybe. Based on the cost, it was an easy decision to keep the ART. Once I went FRFR, I got rid of all the 1 rack space power amps. But I still have many PA power amps (like the Crown K2), so I keep them in the basement for blaring a 4x12 every once in a while.

Another thing I was very surprised by (this is a bit of a topic swerve) is - I have 2 identical Mesa 4x12 cabs. I have always put my Axe into one, and my Marshall amp into another. I would try to go back and forth and get them to sound the same, but couldn't.
One day (on a suggestion from a band mate) I swapped the cabs and the sounds were entirely different. The same cab, same era, same speakers....sound very different.
I have no idea why. But was a good lesson to make sure you check everything, when you are trying to determine why something doesn't sound 'the same'.

Longer story - yesterday I tried to use the same cab and a radial headbone (which allows you to plug 2 heads into one cab, and a/b back and forth). Well, I did this with my Axe/Crown on one channel, and my Marshall on the other channel. I cringe when plugging it in, because I just don't trust that it's not going to fry something. Well, it did. 30 seconds in...pop...no sound....something smells burnt. Good news is - it fried the radial unit (which was free, and I'm sure I can find the burned part and fix it), and not my amps. Bad news - although it says it can take two 100 watt heads....I think a SS power amp is a different animal and is not supposed to be used with the radial unit. Which means, I can never 'flip back and forth' easily with one cab. I thought about using the cab in stereo (one amp to left side, one amp to right side), but that puts the each side of the cab at 4ohms, and my Marshall only likes 8 and 16 ohms.
 
BBN said:
I had the 'bigger' wattage one...I think it was the SLA2. I was very surprised, but the ART sounded better. Matrix could go louder, but did not seem to have as wide of a spectrum. Again, could it have been user error....maybe. Based on the cost, it was an easy decision to keep the ART. Once I went FRFR, I got rid of all the 1 rack space power amps. But I still have many PA power amps (like the Crown K2), so I keep them in the basement for blaring a 4x12 every once in a while.

Another thing I was very surprised by (this is a bit of a topic swerve) is - I have 2 identical Mesa 4x12 cabs. I have always put my Axe into one, and my Marshall amp into another. I would try to go back and forth and get them to sound the same, but couldn't.
One day (on a suggestion from a band mate) I swapped the cabs and the sounds were entirely different. The same cab, same era, same speakers....sound very different.
I have no idea why. But was a good lesson to make sure you check everything, when you are trying to determine why something doesn't sound 'the same'.

Longer story - yesterday I tried to use the same cab and a radial headbone (which allows you to plug 2 heads into one cab, and a/b back and forth). Well, I did this with my Axe/Crown on one channel, and my Marshall on the other channel. I cringe when plugging it in, because I just don't trust that it's not going to fry something. Well, it did. 30 seconds in...pop...no sound....something smells burnt. Good news is - it fried the radial unit (which was free, and I'm sure I can find the burned part and fix it), and not my amps. Bad news - although it says it can take two 100 watt heads....I think a SS power amp is a different animal and is not supposed to be used with the radial unit. Which means, I can never 'flip back and forth' easily with one cab. I thought about using the cab in stereo (one amp to left side, one amp to right side), but that puts the each side of the cab at 4ohms, and my Marshall only likes 8 and 16 ohms.
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Good tip there - I've thought about getting radial headbone
to swap a cab between ss amp channel and tube amp (was put
off by the price of it - 1/2 way to just buying another cab!) - guess I'll just keep swapping cables around when I want to do this rarely
 
hey, wherever the low resonance is centered, cut it in half to drop it down an octave...110Hz, put it at 55 Hz...55 Hz is where you feel the amp, and it does something else crazy with the high end and the mids when you get that low resonant peak out of the way and put it down lower, the high end and mids gain back all that power headroom that was getting sucked up by 110 Hz, everything gets crystal clear in a way no other parameter can bring out
 
mixermang said:
hey, wherever the low resonance is centered, cut it in half to drop it down an octave...110Hz, put it at 55 Hz...55 Hz is where you feel the amp, and it does something else crazy with the high end and the mids when you get that low resonant peak out of the way and put it down lower, the high end and mids gain back all that power headroom that was getting sucked up by 110 Hz, everything gets crystal clear in a way no other parameter can bring out
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Just so I'm clear - you're saying in the Speaker Impedance Curve, try 1 octave lower than the cabs actual low res frequency?
 
sprint said:
Good tip there - I've thought about getting radial headbone
to swap a cab between ss amp channel and tube amp (was put
off by the price of it - 1/2 way to just buying another cab!) - guess I'll just keep swapping cables around when I want to do this rarely
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I've got a used one for sale...cheap. LOL
 
A few years back, Leon Todd did a very deep dive YT with the Mesa amps and the Axe Fx II. Check out his YT channel and look at his Mesa dial in tips. He really goes over many of the settings that most people have never even heard of in the unit. It's really quite incredible.
 
mixermang said:
hey, wherever the low resonance is centered, cut it in half to drop it down an octave...110Hz, put it at 55 Hz...55 Hz is where you feel the amp, and it does something else crazy with the high end and the mids when you get that low resonant peak out of the way and put it down lower, the high end and mids gain back all that power headroom that was getting sucked up by 110 Hz, everything gets crystal clear in a way no other parameter can bring out
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I just tried this using my main ambient high gain preset using the 4x12 citrus curve and wow, that really does change things up. I'll try it again when I'm using headphones (I rarely get to use my monitors lol).
 
I love the powerstation for everything it can do, though the only thing I think it really nails is being a tube amp louder/quieter maker. All the other duties are handy extras and poweramp for fractal is one of those.

Because it is a tube amp that exhibits speaker reactivity, you still have to get into the Fractal speaker impedance curves and get them right for the combination. If you don't dial down the fractal speaker resonances, you will effectively be doubling them since you'll be simulating it first and then adding to it again when driving the actual speaker. I've never fully understood why this isn't a problem when the Powerstation is amplifying a reactively loaded tube amp because in theory they should be the same. This is one of those things... what is that expression? In theory they should be the same in practice but in practice they are not? The answer that "The fractal is not a real tube amp" was not particularly satisfying. I suspect it may be as simple as "The powerstation reactive load is calibrated to work well with the natural speaker reactivity of its embedded tube amp." I've never seen anyone come out and say that from Fryette, so I may be off base.

Anyway, I think it really can be as simple as "dial down the resonances when using the power station" if one can get out of their own way and not get too hung up on "but but but what about the audience being 1% different?! That is intolerable!!" The sound guy can add/subtract a little high/low if needed if your DI feed isn't as lively as the stage. And if one of us has to sacrifice something, it can be the audience because they largely don't care anyway. When I sacrifice, it affects my performance and they do notice that.

There is a thread on TGP that was illuminating where Dave@Fryette talked about the issue of power amp coloration due to filtering and voicing and apparent coloration due to the tube amp reactivity with a speaker. Its not exactly like an EQ boosting bass and treble gain in the poweramp, but it resembles it in a lot of ways.

I thought the Matrix was awesome for what it was: a 1U amp that weighs nothing, performs very well and doesn't color the tone. If anything, I think it UNCOLORS the tone because I always found it to be a bit meek and mild. Others (including people in high places) say they can't tell the difference on an amp switcher. OK. .. I could get mine to where I couldn't tell the difference on a switcher but when I played one for a few minutes and switched back, I could tell then.

Your mileage may vary... my opinions only, obviously.
 
Chris Hurley said:
I've never fully understood why this isn't a problem when the Powerstation is amplifying a reactively loaded tube amp because in theory they should be the same. This is one of those things... what is that expression? In theory they should be the same in practice but in practice they are not? The answer that "The fractal is not a real tube amp" was not particularly satisfying. I suspect it may be as simple as "The powerstation reactive load is calibrated to work well with the natural speaker reactivity of its embedded tube amp." I've never seen anyone come out and say that from Fryette, so I may be off base.

Anyway, I think it really can be as simple as "dial down the resonances when using the power station" if one can get out of their own way and not get too hung up on "but but but what about the audience being 1% different?! That is intolerable!!" The sound guy can add/subtract a little high/low if needed if your DI feed isn't as lively as the stage. And if one of us has to sacrifice something, it can be the audience because they largely don't care anyway. When I sacrifice, it affects my performance and they do notice that.
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In one of the many power station threads on TGP someone had linked a video with Steve Fryette speaking to someone, I think it may have been just a part of a longer interview/discussion, where Steve talks about the Suhr reactive load, the Boss TAE (it may have been in a Boss TAE thread now I think about it) and the power station loads, about why he decided on a tube amp, versus Boss' decision to use a solid-state amp.

If I recall correctly, I think it was something like you describe - it was his design decision for part of the reactivity to come from the reactive load in the power station, the rest of it to come from the direct coupling of the power station's tube power amp and the cab. From what everyone says about the sound and response of the power station, I imagine it is pretty heavily damped (as long as presence/resonance are set low) and therefore shouldn't react a ton to the impedance curve of the cab, then you've got a reactive load element that is maybe toned down a bit from something like a suhr. I have seen plots of the impedance curves and the low resonant peak in the Suhr is higher than that of the power station (then you can make it smaller if you want, depending on the switch selections on the front).
 
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