Quick question: new to Solid State

Thx JoeGold! I will check/ try all above. I should note that this isn't a "problem" The Bryston/ EVs sound awesome! I just expected them to be insanely loud. They are VERY loud. And, my hearing is definitely impaired so there is that. It's the Hiwatt/ Bryston comparison that throws me. The Hiwatts "sound" so much louder. Now, I know that the Hiwatts are way overbuilt. My guess is that they are closer to a 200w amp. I should also note that everything I've noted thus far is "clean". My goal is always to get the clean sound dialed in 1st and I play pretty clean. No high-gain stuff here. So, all this discussion is really centered around clean sounds.

IE: Last night, I pulled up factory preset "USA Lead" and the minute it loaded, I had insane feedback. Perhaps there is no problem, I am just trying to maintain a ton of headroom in my gain structure? But, again, I can get the Hiwatts a LOT louder and stay clean.

Back to checking your suggestions above...

Really appreciate the etailed answers and suggestions.
 
Tried to upload .syx using "upload a file" Does not work. Is there a better way?
Check your settings in your forum profile. There is an option about file upload method. The default one seems to give lots of people problems...

Edit:

It's under Preferences. Uncheck the "Use Flash" option.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_2717.PNG
    IMG_2717.PNG
    245.2 KB · Views: 4
You nailed it. Changed Flash setting: no problem. This is same preset I posted picture of above except I added a couple volume blocks to control output levels via Exp Pedal. Output 1 (no cab) goes to The Bryston/ EVMs. The FXL goes to the RCFs and to ProTools HD via output 2 and I send dry signal to Pro Tools via AES. The VU meter levels of the 2 outputs are virtually identical. The output knobs on the front have Output 2 at 100% and I've been keeping the EVs at 75% (would have thought this setting would be more like 30%)
 

Attachments

  • Deluxe Verb.syx
    6.3 KB · Views: 2
OK Guys: Bad news. The Bryston sounded AWESOME!!, until it melted last night after 4 days of use. It was so hot I couldn't touch it. And, it was in open air (100% unimpeded air circulation). It's dead. I talked to Bryston, they could not explain. Then, frustrated, I spent a (very educational) hour on the phone with Andy at Matrix. He explained why the Bryston melted. It was never meant for that kind of "duty cycle". It's a hi-fi amp. I play pretty loud and he said I was probably pushing the Bryston at about 90% vs it's normal use (Studio monitors/ Hi-fi) where it would run cold at 20%. The explanation is pretty long and technical but happy to share if anybody is interested. Just ordered a GT1000FX-2U. Andy promises me that this will be PLENTY loud, will not melt and will accommodate me nicely if I decide to go to his FR212s instead of my EVM 2 x 12s.

Long story short: do not play guitar thru a 250w hi-fi amp into 4 ohms at 100dB for 4 hours:(. Fortunately, the Bryston is under warranty.)

Now, if you are not an animal like me and you didn't lose 30% of your hearing in the 60s and 70s, a Hi-Fi amp might be OK. But, do you really want to risk a $3000 Bryston or similar???? I'm lucky the Bryston died before it blew my EVs from clipping.
 
OK Guys: Bad news. The Bryston sounded AWESOME!!, until it melted last night after 4 days of use. It was so hot I couldn't touch it. And, it was in open air (100% unimpeded air circulation). It's dead. I talked to Bryston, they could not explain. Then, frustrated, I spent a (very educational) hour on the phone with Andy at Matrix. He explained why the Bryston melted. It was never meant for that kind of "duty cycle". It's a hi-fi amp. I play pretty loud and he said I was probably pushing the Bryston at about 90% vs it's normal use (Studio monitors/ Hi-fi) where it would run cold at 20%. The explanation is pretty long and technical but happy to share if anybody is interested. Just ordered a GT1000FX-2U. Andy promises me that this will be PLENTY loud, will not melt and will accommodate me nicely if I decide to go to his FR212s instead of my EVM 2 x 12s.

Long story short: do not play guitar thru a 250w hi-fi amp into 4 ohms at 100dB for 4 hours:(. Fortunately, the Bryston is under warranty.)

Now, if you are not an animal like me and you didn't lose 30% of your hearing in the 60s and 70s, a Hi-Fi amp might be OK. But, do you really want to risk a $3000 Bryston or similar???? I'm lucky the Bryston died before it blew my EVs from clipping.

Wow.
Sorry to hear about your experience.
Glad the 4B was under warranty.
I *would* like to see the rest of the details of Andy's theory because what you've said thus far just doesn't add up in my experience.
Sounds to me like you might have just blown a fuse or some other sort of circuit protection scheme.
Otherwise, I think your speakers would probably be fried too.

But I think you'll be even happier with the GT, especially on the weight.
I just happen to like the sound I get from my 2Bs a lot more vs my own GT1000 1U.

But the GTs are good power amps and the form factor can't be beat.
As for me, I don't expect either of my 2Bs to crap out on me anytime soon.
But now I'll be a little bit more wary.
 
According to Andy (pardon my poor translation--his detail was over my head), this is all about "duty Cycle". Brystons and similar are built for Hi-Fi where the "duty cycle" rarely exceeds 20% of the amps capabilities. But, to paraphrase him, if you hit a big honking open chord with the Axe output at 0Db, the demand on the amp is WAY higher, up to 90-95%. Now, if you do that once, no biggie. But, if you do it for 3 hours like I do most every night??? The amp is running full bore and it has no fans. It's cooling system is just not designed to deal. In short, the amp overheated like a car radiator. Now, I play quite loud (why I was asking all the questions above about output of the Bryston). I saw something else from Jay Mitchell on TGP. I don't know if true, but on this very subject:

"The typical guitar player reaction to a professional power amplifier - one with appropriate gain to optimize a system's gain structure - is that "it isn't loud enough" when used with a a modeler, because they're incorrectly gauging loudness potential by how far they have to turn up the power amp level control to get to a given volume. They're mistaking gain (more correctly, voltage amplification) for power. The "axe-optimized" Matrix has more gain than is typical for a pro power amp"

I suspect this is why the Bryston did not sound anywhere near as loud as I expected. So, I was running the Axe outputs at 0Db into the Bryston at 4 0hms (2 X 212s w/ EVM-12-Ls in parallel). And, I play quite loudly (I don't have an SPL but I'd guess i am at 100+ dB frequently). Pushing the Bryston at 4 ohms this hard, according to Andy, was a recipe for disaster. Now, for those a little less demanding on their gear, I'm sure the Bryston would be fine. You could run it at 8 or 16 ohms and it would probably be just fine. But, the way I used (abused?) it? According to Andy, the entire design of his amps is quite different. Different technology entirely from the Bryston. He says I can push his amp as hard as I want and, as long as it isn't clipping, I'm fine. You see, the Bryston never showed it was clipping (green lights). This was simply a heat event: amp pushed too hard for too long into too high a load.

I probably did a crumby job explaining but does this make sense?

Even Andy said the Brystons are great amps--just not designed for what I was trying to do. Maybe if I'd taken both my Brystons and used them bridged? Maybe if I'd used 8 ohm load? Don't know. But, those babies are too expensive to experiment with.

On a related vein: Andy said he thought I would be much happier with his FR212s instead of my EVs so I could use cab sims. I would like to be able to use cab sims. So, if the GT works out, I'll likely try his speakers too.
 
FWIW
I just saw the following in the 3B/4B owner's manual:

"A/C power
Before plugging in the power cord be sure your SST amplifier is specified for the correct a/c voltage for your locality. The voltage is listed on the label found at the upper right of the rear panel. The circuit feeding the 4B SST should be sufficient so as not to cause the circuit breaker to trip (15 amp min). Note: the 4B SST when operated with both channels delivering maximum power into 4 ohm loads, will consume all the available power in a normal household circuit, therefore a dedicated electrical circuit may be necessary with this situation. Never lift the safety ground to the amplifier nor remove the ground pin from the plug."

This may have been the source of your problem the other day, i.e. bad power at the venue.

Also...
Were you aware of the circuit breaker on the back of the 4B and was the breaker tripping the reason your amp died?
Or was there something else going on?

Here's a link to the manual, if you don't already have it:
http://bryston.com/PDF/Manuals/3B_4BSST_MANUAL.pdf
 
This could be it but I don't think so. The amp never died. One channel is dead but it is definitely getting AC. Could the power have caused the heat build up? Maybe. But, I talked to Bryston and they did not raise this possibility. In this case, I was in the studio where there are dedicated power lines. Although, I had the RCFs plugged into the same power strip. So, the 2X RCFNX12s were drawing from the same source. It definitely was not a dedicated line for one amp. That would be pretty hard to do in any situation unless you knew the power layout of your location exactly. It was on a 15 amp circuit. I believe the RCFs were the only other thing with any major draw on that circuit. Don't think those digital power amps have much current draw... But, I'll let you know when Bryston figures it out. However, now I'm nervous that I could do same to the Matrix when it gets here.
 
OK Guys: Bad news. The Bryston sounded AWESOME!!, until it melted last night after 4 days of use.
I'm not trying to poke fun or make light of the situation, but that sentence was hilarious. Really sorry to hear about your amp, though. :(

But hopefully someday you can look back on this and see the humor. Not a lot of people can say they melted an amp. Wear it like a badge of honor, you'll have an epic story to tell.
 
Oh, believe me, I get the humor. A Bryston is bulletproof, right? Not when I rock!!!

Maybe I should get a shirt or hat: "I melted a Bryston"!
 
The duty cycle concept is the main reason your rig didn't seem as loud as your Hiwatts. Set up your amps just below distortion - i.e. play them as loud as you possibly can before they distort, and I suspect you'll find a 400W SS amp (a decent one, that's actually rated honestly) will more than keep up with a similar tone from your Axe.

The difference is the massive compression that occurs when you distort an amp. Hardly anyone ever intentionally distorts an SS amp (and most PA-type amps have circuitry that prevents it from happening anyway), so you're comparing two very different setups.

The gentleman from Matrix is probably correct in his diagnosis; your comment about the heat is the giveaway. Music reproduction - even with today's brick wall limiting - has significant 'space' between peaks. A volume setting that requires 100W from an amp to reproduce peaks is probably putting along at 10W or less if you look at an average over some period of time. So it has time to cool down from big energy expenditures.

MI amplification isn't like that, especially distorted program material. It's much more 'energy dense'.

Here's an automotive analogy - suppose your car's top speed is 130mph, and at that vehicle speed, the engine is making 200 horsepower at, say, 6500RPM. You get in your car, run it up to 130, slow down, and go home. You've made that 200 horsepower.

That's not the same thing as running it up to 130 and then hanging there for two hours. The amount of heat the cooling system has to dissipate is exponentially greater at high power levels. Same with the amp. Playing Tchaikovsky so that the cannon hit 400W is different from running a bass guitar set to LemmyTone at 400W.
 
The duty cycle concept is the main reason your rig didn't seem as loud as your Hiwatts. Set up your amps just below distortion - i.e. play them as loud as you possibly can before they distort, and I suspect you'll find a 400W SS amp (a decent one, that's actually rated honestly) will more than keep up with a similar tone from your Axe.
.

You are correct. The Bryston SOUNDED Awesome and did everything I'd hoped. To give you an idea HOW good it sounded??? Because the Bryston is dead, the Matrix is not here yet, and I don't like the sound of the RCFs alone, I plugged my 70s era Hiwatt DR103s back in last night. The Hiwatts are the one set of amps I know will always blow away the Axe or anything else. Last night, after 4 days of Bryston Bliss? My Hiwatts sounded anemic :( I can't believe it! Nothing beats a pair of DR103s run into EVM-12Ls, right? The Bryston/ RCF combo did. The Hiwatts can get a lot LOUDER, but they do not have the same "oomph"

So, I plugged the Axe back into the Mesa 2:90 into the EVs. Loud? YIKES!! At 50% on the 2:90 (ostensibly 45w?), my ears were hurting.

So, here we hit the conundrum. Why would the Bryston at 400w into 4 ohms sound so much less loud (but beautiful) than the 2:90 into 4 ohms with the same speakers?? I suspect it is the comments of Mitchell above on TGP and this:

The duty cycle concept is the main reason your rig didn't seem as loud as your Hiwatts. .

And, as to why I overheated:

The gentleman from Matrix is probably correct in his diagnosis; your comment about the heat is the giveaway. Music reproduction - even with today's brick wall limiting - has significant 'space' between peaks. A volume setting that requires 100W from an amp to reproduce peaks is probably putting along at 10W or less if you look at an average over some period of time. So it has time to cool down from big energy expenditures.

MI amplification isn't like that, especially distorted program material. It's much more 'energy dense'..

I did talk to Bryston again yesterday Re: the "AC issue". They said this was not it. If the AC was insufficient, the amp would have gone into clipping and then "protect" long before it melted.

However, I still don't understand, simply from a logical perspective, why a 400w/ channel Bryston is < 1/2 the "perceived loudness" of a 100w Hiwatt or a 90w Mesa. Is this simply that these amps are distorted and "sound" louder (as Mitchell suggests above?). Is this why guys are loving their 1000w Matrix amps? Should I have gotten a GT1600? Andy at Matrix said the 1000 would sound better thru the EVs but that, if I REALLY want the best solution, I needed 2 of his FR212 and the 1600 (which is perfectly designed to run the FR212 but might blow up my EVs). I am about 1" from ordering 2 X FR212s. This would not only solve my demand for "clean and loud" but allow me use IRs (where the EVs won't).

One thing I should note: For me, this is all about CLEAN volume. When I am using my 3 X Hiwatt DR103s, each thru 2 X 12 w/ 2 X EV12Ls, my input level on the Hiwatts is set to 3 and my MVs are dimed. I want 100+ dB CLEAN. I can always make it dirty. The Mesa 2:90 will do this too (albeit colored by the tubes and Mesa design). Boatloads of CLEAN volume. The Bryston stayed clean. It did not clip (that I could hear). But, even rated at 400W into 4 ohms, both the Hiwatts and the Mesa 2:90 smoked it for "clean volume"
 
Seems as though the amp is either 'optimistically' rated, and/or it didn't like driving the load you gave it (no fault of yours, if it's supposedly designed to do so).
 
Please do.
I'd like to know what they say was the cause of your issue.
Keep me posted.
Thanks.

Just following up this.
What ultimately was the cause of your Bryston shutting down on you?

FWIW
Since this thread, I got worried about running my 2B LP Pro(s) in hot environments and told myself that my Matrix GT1000 would be fine for what I do and put the Matrix back in my rack.

But far too often I'd find myself dialing in a tone and just not being able to dial out a certain quality that'd be bugging me.
I won't attempt to describe it here but it's largely a warmth thing (lack of), especially on attack transients, and I've tried everything I can think of in the Adv Amp Params to compensate for it with no success.

So yesterday I played my Presets through one of my 2Bs and was instantly back into just better sounding tones.
So one of my 2Bs is back in the rack and the Matrix is on the shelf again.

I really don't want to be dissing the Matrix because it's a great product for form factor and so many Axe users are pleased as punch using them, but, to me at least, the Bryston just sounds much more musical.
But if it's likely to fry on me on a gig, well then I guess I'll just learn to live with the Matrix until something else comes along.

E.g. I just tried one of the new Class D SDA-1 amps from ART (running in bridged mono for the most part).
Generally flat freq response, more like the Bryston than the Matrix IMO, but the top end is just brittle and unmusical sounding.

So i guess I'm sticking with Bryston until I come up against a gig where it overheats on me.

Q.
My little 4-space rack has a rack mounted power bar + 1u for my power amp and 2u for the Axe.
I place the Bryston (which only has heat sinks and no fan) on top of the Axe to avoid the Axe from overheating.
I've never noticed the Axe giving off much heat itself so I figure it won't contribute much to the Bryston overheating.
Should I really have the Bryson on the bottom though?

I'm thinking of sandwiching the power bar in between the other two units but then access to the AC sockets will be an even bigger drag than it is now.
Still, might be the safest as far as heat dissipation is concerned.
Any opinions?
 
Back
Top Bottom