Questions about models for Axe-Fx III

FullThrottle64

Inspired
I'm starting to think about moving to a Fractal or Kemper, and am wondering how you would duplicate an amp that isn't in the model list. Please excuse me if this is a stupid question, but I'm starting from knowing roughly nothing about the Axe-FXIII.

In particular, I am wondering about the ADA MP-1 and the Marshall 3203 (a 30-watt EL34-based JCM800 derivative). I also use a Bogner XTC 101b, and I know that there is a partial XTC model already available (blue and red channels, still no green channel).

Do these exist, and/or is there a way to duplicate those models with the Axe-FXIII?

Thanks in advance!
 
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Here's a list of the current models in the Axe III:
https://wiki.fractalaudio.com/wiki/index.php?title=Amplifier_models_list
I recall seeing a preset for the MP-1 in the Preset Exchange (Axechange). As far as emulating other amps that aren't in the list, with the available parameters in the amp block it should be possible to emulate them. Speaking to the amps you mentioned, It would just be a matter of research to find out what makes them different from models in the Axe, then which parameters would need to be adjusted in order to "accurately" emulate them but the tools are in there.
 
Excuse my lack of understanding, but I was under the impression that a "model" is the specific amplifier circuit that the Axe-FX is emulating, while a "preset" is a the settings of the controls that are part of the model.

If you don't have the MP-1 model, how can you have a preset for it?
 
Do you own the items that you want to attempt to emulate? If not, then there's really nothing for you to compare what you're considering. So my guess will be, you won't miss the others you are asking to compare to. Viewing a YouTube video or hearing someone else's rig won't be any comparison. There many variables, the axe3 unit is just one of them. I feel many users do not have the other products they emulate either. But they like the Axe3 and how it performs which really in the end is most important. Note, you're modeling the real thing...it's never going to be the real thing. That does not mean it could not be better, it's just not the real thing.

My suggestion would be to purchase one to test. If you don't like it, you have a return policy which should give comfort to you and resolve any concerns you may have. I think you'll find most are very happy with the product so you'll hear mostly positive comments.

My own opinion, I have one, I use it and like it. It's not my main rig setup as I prefer the real thing. It does not replace them. I can afford what I want so I may be in another category of users. There's a recent post which someone asked to emulate a BE100 from a video (just search). Well, that is one amp that I have and stage use. Does it replace it? Obviously not to me, but that doesn't mean the Axe3 doesn't have it's place in my toolbox. The continued support/updates with Fractal is outstanding.
 
Interesting question.

A little background... I've had all three big digital units - Helix (twice), Kemper and now Axe III. Axe III is hands down the winner for my set up (I run a pedalboard into the Axe III).

I had hoped Helix would be an all-in-one but it just didn't tick the right boxes, didn't feel good, and I didn't like the workflow... it's super tedious.

Kemper sounded good, but they missed probably their two biggest opportunities which is the ability to run two profiles at the same time in stereo paths and having more effects slots. I also felt like there was always this annoying high-mids thing going on around 2500 - 3000hz that made it sound harsh.

Axe III not only allows you to run stereo for the whole signal path, but it sounds better and feels better than Kemper (I know, many will say the opposite). I didn't like the fact that Kemper felt the same no matter what amp profile you're playing. There is also a "rumor" that the Kemper uses a single sophisticated amp profile and makes adjustments to that profile to suit the amp being profiled. If that's true, there is absolutely no way for it to be the most accurate digital image of 1,000 different amps.

TL : DR... Now to your question... I recently, just for fun, tweaked a Matchless Cheiftain (12ax7 preamp tubes/EL34 power tubes) model to sound like a DC30 (EF86 preamp tube/EL84 power tubes). Some EQ after the amp model, a change to EF86 preamp tubes, adjusting the bright caps and preamp bias, and viola! It sounds just like the DC30, but with slightly more headroom (which is a benefit to me running a pedalboard in front of the Axe). So yea, you can use a model that is close to your target sound and with some tweaking get it to sound just like your target model.
 
Do you own the items that you want to attempt to emulate?

Yes. The idea is to be able to replicate my existing amps and sounds without having to lug them around.

Note, you're modeling the real thing...it's never going to be the real thing. That does not mean it could not be better, it's just not the real thing.

I understand this, as I've spent a reasonable amount of time with a lunchbox profiler (I was loaned one for a specific run of shows, and am now thinking about making the switch to a digital rig). I also regularly run my tube heads with a Torpedo Live, routed into the same mixer that I use for acoustic instruments, thus giving me a single feed into my regular wedge monitor and FOH. I ditched the onstage guitar cabinet years ago, so I am well aware of the difference between a mic'd sound and a live amp sound. From my perspective, the mic'd sound is the only thing that matters, as this is what the audience hears through FOH, and what is heard in recording.

My suggestion would be to purchase one to test. If you don't like it, you have a return policy which should give comfort to you and resolve any concerns you may have.

I intensely dislike operating in this fashion. I don't buy cars to test-drive them either. I realize that a digital rig has enough complexity that it is very difficult to get a sense from a quick trial session, but in my opinion this does not excuse purchasing something with the likely intent of returning it.
 
I had hoped Helix would be an all-in-one but it just didn't tick the right boxes, didn't feel good, and I didn't like the workflow... it's super tedious.

I honestly haven't liked the sounds I have heard from the Helix when I've played with other guys using it. JMO, YMMV, etc.

Kemper sounded good, but they missed probably their two biggest opportunities which is the ability to run two profiles at the same time in stereo paths and having more effects slots. I also felt like there was always this annoying high-mids thing going on around 2500 - 3000hz that made it sound harsh.

I'm not sure I am concerned about that limitation, as that's just not a sound path that I go down. I have also noted the harshness you describe, and I think I figured out how to avoid it. (Not going into detail, as this is the wrong forum for that topic.)

Axe III not only allows you to run stereo for the whole signal path, but it sounds better and feels better than Kemper (I know, many will say the opposite). I didn't like the fact that Kemper felt the same no matter what amp profile you're playing.

Hmmm......I haven't felt that way with it. Are you using monitors or a guitar cabinet? I would expect that if you run through a guitar cabinet and don't use the cabinet IRs that the single speaker/cabinet would give a narrow range of "feel".....but that's my opinion from my limited use of the Kemper (just a few months with it).

TL : DR... Now to your question... I recently, just for fun, tweaked a Matchless Cheiftain (12ax7 preamp tubes/EL34 power tubes) model to sound like a DC30 (EF86 preamp tube/EL84 power tubes). Some EQ after the amp model, a change to EF86 preamp tubes, adjusting the bright caps and preamp bias, and viola! It sounds just like the DC30, but with slightly more headroom (which is a benefit to me running a pedalboard in front of the Axe). So yea, you can use a model that is close to your target sound and with some tweaking get it to sound just like your target model.

Yes, but then you don't have the benefit of being able to literally copy your knob settings from the real amp to the model. This approach is really like using my Bogner XTC to sound like an AC30. Can it be done? Maybe, but if I'm trying to re-create a particular sound that I have dialed in on the AC30, it's a much more involved process than I would prefer.

Without a full model available, it seems easier to get there fast with the Kemper; hook up the amp to my Torpedo Live, spend 10 minutes doing a profile, and done. Trouble is, the Kemper doesn't have a model approach, either. Once you have a profile, it really is only a single sound that can't be tweaked much without starting to sound bad. Perhaps a very good sound, but a one-trick pony. Then you have to find the right sound out of the 18,000 or so profiles in existence. They can sound fantastic, but I feel like I was digging for needles in haystacks constantly with it (again, JMO, YMMV).
 
I honestly haven't liked the sounds I have heard from the Helix when I've played with other guys using it. JMO, YMMV, etc.
Agreed on that point too. I know several guys with the Helix and their tone is "lifeless".

I'm not sure I am concerned about that limitation, as that's just not a sound path that I go down. I have also noted the harshness you describe, and I think I figured out how to avoid it. (Not going into detail, as this is the wrong forum for that topic.)
Definitely a use case not suited to everyone! Since I run pedals in front, the ability to run stereo out of my wet effects into a digital platform is a big plus for me. With Kemper, I found myself taking Kemper and a real amp to gigs so I could run my pedalboard in stereo.

Hmmm......I haven't felt that way with it. Are you using monitors or a guitar cabinet? I would expect that if you run through a guitar cabinet and don't use the cabinet IRs that the single speaker/cabinet would give a narrow range of "feel".....but that's my opinion from my limited use of the Kemper (just a few months with it).
I'm using monitors at home (Kali LP6) and IEMs at gigs. I've monitored real amps through IEM's for years, so the transition to IEM's wasn't an issue for me.

Yes, but then you don't have the benefit of being able to literally copy your knob settings from the real amp to the model. This approach is really like using my Bogner XTC to sound like an AC30. Can it be done? Maybe, but if I'm trying to re-create a particular sound that I have dialed in on the AC30, it's a much more involved process than I would prefer.
True! It took a while to dial in the Chieftain to sound like the DC30. I did it mostly for fun and curiosity. But I found that the Chieftain has a bit more headroom, which is nice. I will say that the DC30 model sounds, feels and responds exactly like my real HC30 at the same settings. A little tip to anyone using the DC30... I believe the real amp has a 180pf bright cap at the input and on the master volume. Lot's of people cut the MV cap to warm up the amp. I like... no, LOVE, the brightness of a DC30 so mine is stock. In the Axe, set both bright caps to 180pf and dime the master with the input drive set to between 1.8 - 2.2 and you're in "edge of break up heaven".

Without a full model available, it seems easier to get there fast with the Kemper; hook up the amp to my Torpedo Live, spend 10 minutes doing a profile, and done. Trouble is, the Kemper doesn't have a model approach, either. Once you have a profile, it really is only a single sound that can't be tweaked much without starting to sound bad. Perhaps a very good sound, but a one-trick pony. Then you have to find the right sound out of the 18,000 or so profiles in existence. They can sound fantastic, but I feel like I was digging for needles in haystacks constantly with it (again, JMO, YMMV).
I had the Kemper for 2 years, and the Axe for about two months... so we're going in opposite directions, haha! I actually found I spent more time searching for the right profile and tweaking profiles, than I have spent tweaking the Axe III. Out of the box, I pulled up the DC30 profile, set it up like I would run my amp, and ran with it. But I'm so familiar with that amp that I knew exactly what I wanted out of it... even with the nuances of how it would react to delay and reverb in front. It was more difficult for me to get Kemper to react the way I wanted it to, even with a profile of my amp (which Tone Junkies sell - their DC30 profile pack is my amp).
 
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I'm using monitors at home (Kali LP6) and IEMs at gigs. I've monitored real amps through IEM's for years, so the transition to IEM's wasn't an issue for me.

Similar to my setup - either standard monitor wedge or headphones (I occasionally do "silent-stage" theater gigs).

I had the Kemper for 2 years, and the Axe for about two months... so we're going in opposite directions, haha! I actually found I spent more time searching for the right profile and tweaking profiles, than I have spent tweaking the Axe III. Out of the box, I pulled up the DC30 profile, set it up like I would run my amp, and ran with it. But I'm so familiar with that amp that I knew exactly what I wanted out of it... even with the nuances of how it would react to delay and reverb in front. It was more difficult for me to get Kemper to react the way I wanted it to, even with a profile of my amp (which Tone Junkies sell - their DC30 profile pack is my amp).
I think that the issue with the Kemper is the lack of adjustability. I think that the profiles can sound really good if made well and left un-tweaked.

The corollary with the Axe-FX seems to be the lack of ability to build a model outside of their standard list. If they have the amp that you want, it's great; otherwise.....?

Pick your poison, I guess.
 
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Similar to my setup - either standard monitor wedge or headphones (I occasionally do "silent-stage" theater gigs).


I think that the issue with the Kemper is the lack of adjustability. I think that the profiles can sounds really good if made well and left un-tweaked.

The corollary with the Axe-FX seems to be the lack of ability to build a model outside of their standard list. If they have the amp that you want, it;s great; otherwise.....?

Pick your poison, I guess.
Agreed, Kemper sounds fine if the "snapshot" is how you need the amp set up for your use. These days though, profilers are blending mics, using high-end preamps EQ'ing for their own tastes, etc... I've always like Michael Britt's approach... most.simple.signal.path. He profiled an I had, and watching him work was eye opening. Nothing fancy going on and those profiles sounded just like the amp. Now, having a guy like that setup the amp is where he has an edge on everyone else. His real world experience, and tones in his head, are a priceless reference point.

I do think with the Axe you can get close enough to any amp you can think of with the 270+ models that are there. As I recall, the MP1 is a 12AX7 based preamp with a lot of EQ and some effects capability (I had one back in the late 80's/early 90's). If you had access to one, I'd be willing to bet you could tone match it using an onboard Mesa rig. For the Marshall, if you can find a schematic, you should be able to get very close using one of the Marshall models. The tone shaping tools are far more powerful in the Axe than in either the Helix or Kemper. You could always add those two amps to the wish list too.
 
SUP? ;-)
The corollary with the Axe-FX seems to be the lack of ability to build a model outside of their standard list. If they have the amp that you want, it;s great; otherwise.....?

Pick your poison, I guess.

I think you might be dismissing it a bit early, and might wanna look a little deeper at what you can do with the controls the Axe-fx offers.

OK, not really having total bearing on this ( just curious because I've owned them all at one time or another) ,,,on the ADA,, are you talking a stock model or a prefered modded vers.?

Anyway,, for the Otherwise?,,, MOST, amps are just derivatives of a small handful of circuits ,,,if you know about the type of circuit that the amp you are trying to get to,, with the Axe-fx, not only can you change the Power amp tubes, and bias, cathode resistance,etc you can change the MV position and the cap. You can also change pre amp tubes, the triode 1 &2 plate freq. the Tone stack freq.itself, AND,,,the Tonestack type. so there is a great chance that you can build something really close to what you are after if the model you want isn't in there,,,yet :)

you just Cant do that with a Kemper ;-)

MOSHON
DAVE
 
Agreed, Kemper sounds fine if the "snapshot" is how you need the amp set up for your use. These days though, profilers are blending mics, using high-end preamps EQ'ing for their own tastes, etc... I've always like Michael Britt's approach... most.simple.signal.path. He profiled an I had, and watching him work was eye opening. Nothing fancy going on and those profiles sounded just like the amp. Now, having a guy like that setup the amp is where he has an edge on everyone else. His real world experience, and tones in his head, are a priceless reference point.

Yeah - I used a couple of his profiles for my last show series.

If you had access to one, I'd be willing to bet you could tone match it using an onboard Mesa rig.

I still have the one that I got back when they were brand-new. Easy....but about the same basic situation as the Kemper, if you're doing that process.

For the Marshall, if you can find a schematic, you should be able to get very close using one of the Marshall models.
Probably not. The power section is standard 50W JCM800. The preamp section, though, is unique, with a hybrid SS/12AX7 approach; the SS portion uses an LED for overdrive.
 
SUP? ;-)


I think you might be dismissing it a bit early, and might wanna look a little deeper at what you can do with the controls the Axe-fx offers.

Maybe true. Just trying to learn before dropping a bunch of coin. In any case, I'm not completely dismissing it. I'm here on this site because I really don't want to jump in with either of the "big two" digital rigs before understanding them both well enough to make an informed decision. I'm not trying to over-focus on the gaps, but to be honest, both Fractal and Kemper do a lot of things really, really well, and both can sound outstanding. The problems always arise when you find out that the one thing you really wanted to do doesn't work on the one you just bought,.....

OK, not really having total bearing on this ( just curious because I've owned them all at one time or another) ,,,on the ADA,, are you talking a stock model or a prefered modded vers.?

Stock.

Anyway,, for the Otherwise?,,, MOST, amps are just derivatives of a small handful of circuits ,,,if you know about the type of circuit that the amp you are trying to get to,, with the Axe-fx, not only can you change the Power amp tubes, and bias, cathode resistance,etc you can change the MV position and the cap. You can also change pre amp tubes, the triode 1 &2 plate freq. the Tone stack freq.itself, AND,,,the Tonestack type. so there is a great chance that you can build something really close to what you are after if the model you want isn't in there,,,yet :)

Hmmm.....I need to dig deeper. That won't get me to the 3203 or other hybrids, but I see where you're going for just about any all-tube amp.

you just Cant do that with a Kemper ;-)
True. Kemper profiles are fantastic, but what you get is what you get - it's a very static sound that can't change, even if it's a very good static sound.
 
Maybe true. Just trying to learn before dropping a bunch of coin. In any case, I'm not completely dismissing it. I'm here on this site because I really don't want to jump in with either of the "big two" digital rigs before understanding them both well enough to make an informed decision. I'm not trying to over-focus on the gaps, but to be honest, both Fractal and Kemper do a lot of things really, really well, and both can sound outstanding. The problems always arise when you find out that the one thing you really wanted to do doesn't work on the one you just bought,.....

Right on,, the advantage you'd be getting with the Axe-fx over the Kemper is that you can( don't HAVE to) tweak all the things in real time you would bring an amp to a Tech. to hot rod, or mod. which in a sense is what made some famous amps into ,,,Other famous amps. even a Variac is built in ;-)


Hmmm.....I need to dig deeper. That won't get me to the 3203 or other hybrids, but I see where you're going for just about any all-tube amp.

Probably not. The power section is standard 50W JCM800. The preamp section, though, is unique, with a hybrid SS/12AX7 approach; the SS portion uses an LED for overdrive.

On that note ,, you might can simulate a hybrid of some sort by setting the preamp section of something close, to "Active" instead of any particular amp model and use one of the LED drives in front of the amp to simulate that part of the circuit, and still have the 50watt tubes for the power part.

MOSHON
DAVE
 
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