Questions about live EQ/high pass

[ConnorGilks]

I'm trying to improve the live sound of myself and my band and was trying to think of how to EQ things so the guitar leaves more room for the bass, while also giving more clarity to the guitars. Here's what I'm thinking:

I tried a High Pass at about 90Hz for fun (since that's what is usually done when recording) and it was clearer, but there was no punch to the tone and quite a gap in the frequency spectrum between the bass and the guitars. It also really lost the low notes when the whole band was playing together.

My band tunes to Drop Ab, meaning our lowest note is - correct me if I'm wrong - just shy of 52Hz (51.91Hz to be exact). Now I understand that every note has harmonics above the fundemental, but what about below? Is there any reasons I shouldn't cut everything below, say, 40Hz? Isn't it all just useless mud that I could leave to the bass guitar to fill up?

Now obviously to an extent this depends on how I EQ the note, since the Q of the pedal/multieffects unit I use might suck down some of the 52Hz range if I do it at 40Hz... what about 30Hz? I tried a High Pass at 30Hz just now at medium volume on my main patch by myself. It certainly felt clearer and less muddy. Was it missing something? Yes and no. It still felt thick and powerful, but there was a very subtle something different from it in the low end, but as far as I can tell taking it out just made it clearer, not any less fat.

So I guess this leaves me with this:

1) That "something" I cut in my guitar tone, where does it come from if I'm cutting well below where my guitar range ends? Let alone the frequencies my guitar cab would support decently.
2) Is there any reason not to EQ out anything, say, 10Hz lower than the lowest note any of us have on our respective guitars?
3) How else do you EQ things (for guitar AND bass) live to leave room in the mix and bring out clarity?

Our guitars are always mid heavy with not a lot of bass to try and leave room for the bass guitar, but it never sounds as good as some other professional bands who just use real amps and little to no outboard gear beyond that. Obviously there's a sound guy helping them out, but even when I was at the sound check for Periphery BEFORE any EQ was done by the sound guy their live sound was still better than my band's, as well as most local bands. Since we don't have a sound guy I'm trying to think of what else can be done to improve our live sound on our end (compression, EQ, etc.) which we have more control over now since both guitarist have flexible digital units now.

 

[sam]

Since you tune so low, maybe try a low cut around 70hz in the amp block. Also comes down to cab/amp choice. Try less gain if you play loud. I'm just an amateur at this stuff, but maybe if you post a recording of your live mix the pros can make some specific suggestions.

 

[ConnorGilks]

Since you tune so low, maybe try a low cut around 70hz in the amp block. Also comes down to cab/amp choice. Try less gain if you play loud. I'm just an amateur at this stuff, but maybe if you post a recording of your live mix the pros can make some specific suggestions.

I do use as low gain as I can get away with for the sake of clarity. But if I cut as high as 70Hz that's going to cut out a LOT of the fundamental on the low notes, isn't it? And it'll definitely lose a lot of the thickness.

 

[Rex]

I tried a High Pass at about 90Hz for fun (since that's what is usually done when recording) and it was clearer, but there was no punch to the tone and quite a gap in the frequency spectrum between the bass and the guitars. It also really lost the low notes when the whole band was playing together.

I can't imagine anything below 90 Hz that the bass won't pick up. If it doesn't, you need to dial in the bass. In the mix, the guitar only contributes mud below 90 Hz. Just for kicks, try high-passing at 120 Hz and see what you think.

Now I understand that every note has harmonics above the fundemental, but what about below?

Theres' no such thing as harmonics below the fundamental.

I tried a High Pass at 30Hz just now at medium volume on my main patch by myself.

Might as well not low-pass at all, if you're going that low. It's like an amusement park sign that says, "You may not go on this ride if you are less than three inches tall." It's not unusual to cut the whole mix below 40 Hz.

That "something" I cut in my guitar tone, where does it come from if I'm cutting well below where my guitar range ends?

It comes from your pick attack.

Is there any reason not to EQ out anything, say, 10Hz lower than the lowest note any of us have on our respective guitars?

There's good reason to EQ out a lot more than that. Borrow a wireless and step out into the venue while the band is playing, and you'll know what I mean. Unless you've already dialed in your tone to fit the mix without EQ.

Our guitars are always mid heavy with not a lot of bass to try and leave room for the bass guitar, but it never sounds as good as some other professional bands who just use real amps and little to no outboard gear beyond that.

The guitars are only one part of how your band sounds. You can't tell what the band sounds like from the stage. You need a pair of ears (or a mic to record with) in the room, and then make some decisions about what doesn't sound right to you.

 

[ConnorGilks]

Thanks Rex! Allow me to elaborate...

I can't imagine anything below 90 Hz that the bass won't pick up. If it doesn't, you need to dial in the bass. In the mix, the guitar only contributes mud below 90 Hz. Just for kicks, try high-passing at 120 Hz and see what you think.

Theres' no such thing as harmonics below the fundamental.

Might as well not low-pass at all, if you're going that low. It's like an amusement park sign that says, "You may not go on this ride if you are less than three inches tall." It's not unusual to cut the whole mix below 40 Hz.

It comes from your pick attack.

There's good reason to EQ out a lot more than that. Borrow a wireless and step out into the venue while the band is playing, and you'll know what I mean. Unless you've already dialed in your tone to fit the mix without EQ.

The guitars are only one part of how your band sounds. You can't tell what the band sounds like from the stage. You need a pair of ears (or a mic to record with) in the room, and then make some decisions about what doesn't sound right to you.

Cutting at 90Hz was just thin and has no punch whatsoever, regardless of if bass was in the mix or not. That being said, what would you recommend when it comes to dialing in the bass tone? I understand a band mix is more than just guitars, I was just stating how we're already trying to stay in the midrange and out of the bass guitars range with the basic 3-band EQ.

I know there aren't harmonics below the fundamental, that's what I'm asking about. You're saying that although the note doesn't produce anything below 52Hz, the pick attack does?

Regarding 30Hz being too low, it might be common for everything below 40Hz to be cut at the mixer, but with 90% of our gigs we only have the PA for vocals. Even if we were mic'd, it still is nice to know if I can clean up the stage sound by cutting stuff down there. I'm messing with the values right now to try and find a good place to cut from, but yeah.

Again, I completely understand the basics of "stage sound =/= audience sound", that is not the point here at all. This is more about that specific application of a High Pass.

EDIT: Thought I should add this. Why is anything below 90Hz on guitar just mud? If that's where the fundamental is isn't it important? Sure, maybe the bass will make the fundamental more prominent, but what about when the guitar is playing by itself, isn't it just all high end scratchiness and indistinguishable tones at that point (assuming I'm playing notes below that High Pass mark). It's also tough when people say you need to cut everything below a certain point when I hear bands playing without a sound guy that just use standard setups that get a better live mix WITHOUT cutting everything below 90Hz.

 

[Rex]

I know you're no ignoramus when it comes to tone, and you raise a lot of good questions. I'll tell you what I know, which is way less than everything.

Cutting at 90Hz was just thin and has no punch whatsoever...

Punch comes between 100 and 300 Hz, give or take a few. Maybe you need more of that, but maybe the bass needs it instead. To get more punch, either boost somewhere in that frequency range, or tame other frequencies that may be dominating more than they should. Without hearing the tone myself, it's hard to say much more. What part of that frequency range is the right part? You need to experiment with your gear and your band to really know. The sweet spot varies from one situation to another.

...what would you recommend when it comes to dialing in the bass tone?

Some things to keep in mind:

• For the lowest notes on the bass guitar, most of the sonic energy comes from the second harmonic and above.
• The bass's ability to punch through the mix and be heard has more to do with what it's doing in the midrange. Experiment with a broad range of frequencies around 1 KHz.
• If you EQ the bass to have tons of low end, he'll have a big bowl of nothing when he goes to his higher strings.

You're saying that although the note doesn't produce anything below 52Hz, the pick attack does?

Your pick attack has lots of frequencies, including some low-end stuff. The low-end stuff can make your guitar sound massive when you're playing by yourself, but it'll hurt you in the mix.

Regarding 30Hz being too low, it might be common for everything below 40Hz to be cut at the mixer, but with 90% of our gigs we only have the PA for vocals.

Unless you've got a synth player who likes to reach crazy low, there's nothing of any musical value in the first octave. There's only stage rumble, and vocal mics eat that stuff for breakfast. They also like to pick up bleed from your drums and bass. Cut out everything below the singer's range.

Why is anything below 90Hz on guitar just mud?

Because that's where the bass and kick live.

If that's where the fundamental is isn't it important?

Nope. On a standard-tuned guitar, there are only a couple of frets on the bottom string whose fundamental is below 90 Hz. Even tuned to Ab, 95% of the notes on your guitar have fundamentals above 90 Hz. And on those lowest notes, most of the sound energy is at the 2nd harmonic and above.

Try to find the isolated guitar tracks for a couple of your favorite recordings. You'll be surprised how thin the guitar sounds when there's no band behind it—and how meaty it sounds when it's played with the band.

Sure, maybe the bass will make the fundamental more prominent, but what about when the guitar is playing by itself, isn't it just all high end scratchiness and indistinguishable tones at that point (assuming I'm playing notes below that High Pass mark).

If all you get is high-end scratchiness when you high-pass at 90 Hz, you have a severe midrange deficit. Maybe that's the root of the problem.

 

[clarky]

rather than lose all your low end, try not cutting or boosting it along with a small [2dB to 4dB] cut in the 500Hz band
it'll have the effect of deeping your low end without you actually having to boost it

your bassist will also be throwing a lot into that 200 - 500Hz general area
so you'll be punching a little hole in the freq spectrum for him to live in

 

[Der JD]

I think one thing to note and it seems to be a common misconception is this:

Most typical "high pass filters" don't completely block everything below the cutoff frequency, they just greatly reduce the amplitude of everything below it. So, if you high pass at say, 120 hz, there will still be stuff living below 120 hz, but it will be reduced. This can be seen using any spectrum analyzer plugin. Apply a high pass. You'll still see stuff going on below it.

 

[Vhalen50]

I cut everything below 60HZ. But through a cab, i dont really notice it much

 

[cabo246]

So you just do this in the amp block graph EQ? Do you do this [2dB to 4dB] cut in the 500Hz band to alot of your amps Clarky for Live and/or recording?

 

[Moltenmetalburn]

Someone said there are no harmonics below the fundamental.

This is incorrect.

Subharmonic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


As for highpassign your tone. Most player tuned very low are relying on the second harmonic , much of the fundamental and below is removed at FOH before the audience hears it. When alone it can seem to neuter your tone but well placed in a mix will be equally devastating. Heavy guitar guitar is actually guitar AND bass when you see a live band or listen to a record. If a hole seems to exist after the highpass re tweak the bass and everything else in the mix. You can't just trim the guitar and leave everything else as is.

 

[rsf1977_again]

I play in drop A and i cute everything below 55hz-60hz after the amp because there's really not much going on there and I dont want my poweramp wasting it's power on trying to create it.

as for dealing with in front of the amp. You can try using a drive block boosting, but not fully mixed in. So basically set up a driveblock like the TS808 with the level on 10, gain super low like 1-3, and the mix at 0%, if you notice the frequency range of the TS808 it's super narrow. The drive block is cutting almost everything except around 600hz. Sounds crazy i know lol. But it's not ... So now start raising the mix on the drive block and what's going to happen is the blended signal will become more midrange heavy and start tightening up the low and high end since it is going to be lower in level then the drive block you're adding. Your eq hitting your amp is going have much more mid range content as you raise it. So just experiment, i usually end up around 30-50% mix. I like this because you still can retain some of those lows and highs but in a much more usable way. It's an easy thing to try. I actually prefer the FullOD block over most of the others. Happy tone hunting

 

[Rex]

Someone said there are no harmonics below the fundamental.

This is incorrect.

Subharmonic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There's no such thing as subharmonics. The Wikipedia article is inaccurate.

The article says that bells have subharmonics. Bells can produce overtones that can intermodulate when the bell is driven beyond linearity. This can generate notes below the fundamental of the bell, but those notes aren't harmonically related to the fundamental.

The article also mentions techniques with stringed instruments. These techniques abuse the strings into vibrating at a frequency below their natural frequency, but again, those frequencies aren't harmonically related to the fundamental, and they stop sounding when the string abuse stops.

 

[ConnorGilks]

Thanks everyone for your help. A lot of this stuff I do already, I think it's just a matter of getting the band together for a session to just tweak our overall sound for an hour or two. Tough to do now since we don't have a bassist! Heh. Thanks again everyone.

 

[clarky]

So you just do this in the amp block graph EQ? Do you do this [2dB to 4dB] cut in the 500Hz band to alot of your amps Clarky for Live and/or recording?

yes I do...
mainly with my 'gainier' tones [riff and solo]

in the amp EQ page I'll make a defacto cut in the 500Hz band..

any other EQ'ing is done in a GEQ block at the end of the grid
the differences betwen live and studio EQ are handled in this GEQ block
because studio I use cab blocks, live I use Marshall 4x12 cabs [cab emulaton = off], and so my studio and live GEQ settings are quite different..

this also enables me to us the same amp: global bocks for studio and live
keeps my tone nice and consistent..

 

[barhrecords]

yes I do...
mainly with my 'gainier' tones [riff and solo]

in the amp EQ page I'll make a defacto cut in the 500Hz band..

any other EQ'ing is done in a GEQ block at the end of the grid
the differences betwen live and studio EQ are handled in this GEQ block
because studio I use cab blocks, live I use Marshall 4x12 cabs [cab emulaton = off], and so my studio and live GEQ settings are quite different..

this also enables me to us the same amp: global bocks for studio and live
keeps my tone nice and consistent..

I do the same. At least a 0.5 cut at 500 in most presets.

To the OP I would suggest using a filter block or eq to boost right above the low freq cut off. The idea is to chop off the lows but boost right above the knee frequency. The old Pultec EQ's did this. Attenuate and Boost at the same time. The little "hill" right at the cutoff freq will fill in the sound.

You might have to move the freq of the high pass and bump to get it where you need it. But move both together.

For example the Filter block can do a low cut and bump like this:

 

[ConnorGilks]

Thanks barhrecords, that's a great idea. I will try that out!