Question: Why do different guitars react more with AFX rather than with a rea...

tommyco10

tommyco10

Inspired
Something I've noticed with my axe II is that the guitar you put in front of it makes a huge difference to the resultant sound. This sounds like I'm stating the obvious- which in a way I am; I EXPECT the axefx to react to the individual tone of my guitar/pickups etc, if it is to be accurate like a real tube amp.

What surprised me is the degree by which the Axe does this. If I plug in my different guitars to my real 5150 mk2 I get the different flavours of each of my guitars through what essentially sounds like the same rig.

If I do the same but with the 6160 II model in the AFX, I get a MUCH bigger tonal variation where I start to consider making MAJOR changes to the patch.

I've noticed that the feel of the amp shifts so much with each of my guitars with the AFX in comparison to with the real amp. One of my guitars with an alnico nailbomb in the bridge sounds quite loose and flubby if I built the patch using another guitar which has a ceramic nailbomb in the bridge. This is not nearly as noticeable through the real amp.

Of course this isn't a major problem in practise, as I simply create a different set of patches for each of my different guitars, but I am however curious as to why there is a much bigger difference in the AFX than with a real amp.


Tommy
 
It would actually be great to hear anything Cliff has to say on this.

I remember taking my Axe FX II to a friend's not long after I got it and found the tone to be noticeably brighter---I was using one of his cables rather than my own! I have picked up on the difference of cables to a very subtle extent with real amps before, but for some reason it was a much more obvious difference with the Axe.
 
I've heard some say that this partly attributable to the "miced amp" versus "in the room" sound. It would be interesting to see what the guys that use power amps into guitar cabs think about this behaviour.

Saying that I think that perhaps the latest firmware revision may be more accepting of changes in guitars then earlier ones. Previously when switching from a humbucking to a single coil equipped guitar I would often need to tone down the highs a fair bit (more than just turning off the bright switch for instance) or doing something to add some fullness. It seems I don't need to do as much now & the sound is still very good with minimal tweaking - maybe something with the way the top end reacts now? (Or I could have been imagining the differences, who knows).
 
I recently added a global filter block set to -6dB (as per wiki) to accommodate for my LIII which has much hotter pickups than my EMG equipped guitars. This works really well. I wonder if I'd have the same issue though if I was using a real amp? I might have to fire up the 'ol Marshall and see what happens.
 
I find the same thing.

The Fractal seems to magnify the inherent quality of the guitars more than my real amps.

In my case I really dig this as it lets my guitars really speak on a track. It's a more visceral representation of the instrument to my ears.
 
Glad it's not just me!

I'm monitoring through a Benchmark DAC-1 into a pair of Adam A7s with an Adam Sub 8.

I've had this particular setup for years and usually monitor my real mic'd amps through this setup too as my amps are in my control room and cabs in the live room.

Thinking about it, I've spent most of the last 10 years monitoring real amps through microphones almost exclusively since I've had a studio setup- and apart from time spent setting up mics, I've spent very little time in the same room as my cabs as I rarely play live nowadays.
 
Same here. It's one of the first things that really stood out when i got the Axe. I've created patches for certain guitars as a result.....
 
The Last Romantic said:
So...now can we all admit sharing presets was a stupid idea to begin with?

I never understood the popularity of the concept, because everyone's speakers/guitars sound so drastically different with the Axe...
Click to expand...

One of my two guitars sounds great with the HBE. The other one sounds like poop, but works great with the Recto, and vice versa. Same model, but different pickups. So while sharing presets can give one a starting point, chances are the differences in guitars will not translate into a great sound immediately.
 
Yeah- one of the first things I did when I first got my AFX a couple of years ago was to download presets from axechange to get me started.

After trialling a few I was stunned at how awful they sounded in comparison to sound clips the originator had recorded.

I figured out quite quickly that axe change wasn't going to get me anywhere near where I wanted to be tonally, in most cases, not even as a starting point!

Now that the amp algorithms are getting stupidly close to the real thing, I assumed that the axe would react to the source more like an amp, but I don't think that particular aspect has changed.

Not that I think it's a bad thing that the AFX allows a guitars tonal signature to shine through, I just think it's a bit too unpredictable and unlike how a real amp would handle the source.
 
this happens on my presets too. but only when using FRFR setups .. if i plug the same amp settings into my cab the difference is far less audible. the FRFR with impulse responses etc. is just a little more detailed to my ears then going through a cab and have the amp-in-the-room sound

you might try this: plug a DI between your amp (CAUTION: watch your level -> set your DI to -30db !! this is in generel a much hotter output compared to normal line signals) and your cab (or in the fx-loop) and record this signal with different guitars. then reamp those recordings through the axe with only the cab block active and compare those.
 
I've experience *something* like this too. But then again, when I create a preset, it's with a particular Guitar in mind, so I've never really spent too much time thinking about it.

With that in mind, a suggestion would be to take a default settings amp and cab, try a few different guitars, and see if the difference is really that pronounced. Be interesting to find out.
 
I'tsa good question, but this used to be much worse. I had to make different presets for different guitars now I just have to tweak sometimes.
 
I am not sure if it's "more" than with a real amp, but I think that there is a skew in our perception when dialing in a tone with an amp vs the AxeFXII. With an amp we know what we've got and we aren't questioning it, not tweaking the crap out of it, etc. With the AxeFXII we tend to get into the subatomic level of scrutiny and our senses are heightened to get there.

Another thing is that sheer volume will mask a lot of nuance that the AxeFXII kind of delivers between instruments. May not be the case for everyone, but I don't need to run the AxeFXII as loud as my amps to get the same feel which is awesome.

Of course this is all just speculation/brainstorming/spit-balling because I notice the difference and it's one of the things that I absolutely love about it. I've had plenty of other devices (i.e., "junk") that it didn't matter what I plugged into it just sounded the same. I mean why have more than one guitar if you are getting the same thing every time? It's one of the reasons why my GAS for guitars went up with the AxeFXII because those differences between guitars matter now....well that and the fact that I no longer want for any amp or effect.


As for reasons or ways around it, I wonder if messing with the input impedance of the amps would compensate. I mean that's one of the biggest differences between pickup types and it does make a huge difference in things like resonant frequency and even overall response. Try changing that capacitance value and see if it helps compensate. I think that is what it is there for even though most of us (including myself) don't touch it.
 
The Last Romantic said:
So...now can we all admit sharing presets was a stupid idea to begin with?

I never understood the popularity of the concept, because everyone's speakers/guitars sound so drastically different with the Axe...
Click to expand...

"Stupid idea" is perhaps a bit strong, but due to the vast array of variables, that's pretty much been my view of it since day one
yessmiley.gif
 
I think the 'amp in a room' thing is such a big variable by itself (the room plays a huge part) that it can be a good catch all excuse as to why stuff in the AFX sounds different to the real world. Until we get a firmware update which addresses the discrepancy... ;)

Bare in mind I've been monitoring isolated amps through this setup for 10 years now, I know 5150s (and IIs) inside out and how they react under certain conditions and I trust my ears!

I can definitely say that my 5150s through my cab, mic and monitor setup are less sensitive to the tonal difference between my guitars than the AFX ii.

Infact I'm glad 'gin' mentioned the FRFR IR thing as I've also noticed that IRs themselves don't react quite as you'd expect a real cab to react when changing amplifier.

For example during a recording session (in the real world) I might try several amps through the same cab and not experience the same kaleidoscope of change as I get when I change amp blocks through the same IR- like weird sub-bass in some models and not another, weird spikes in the mids and unexpectedly sharp or dull top end.


It's as if the cab isn't interacting with the differences in power-section, just as the guitar isn't interacting with the front end of the amp. Is this potentially something like a lack of interaction in dynamic load/impedance or something?

I feel the AFX is sooooo close but it feels like it needs to join up the dots a bit. Not a major criticism as I love my AFX and I can get insane sounds out of it (some of which I prefer to real amps), but if it is to entirely replace my amp collection, things like this need to be addressed.
 
I agree... It varies much more that a real amp. Its the amp, not the overall response of the unit, the amps tend to be much more sensitive to their input. Hope Cliff can tell us why.
 
I don't have an answer because I don't experience this. Guitars don't "interact" with the front end of an amp.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom