Question on Seamless Delays

Dr. Dipwad

Experienced
I have my coupon code and I'll be ordering the Axe FX II soon.

I'm happy I'll be replacing my current uber-complicated rig with one box, since the whole purpose of the current rig is basically to do what the Axe FX II does by itself. (The current rig has 2 Pod XT's and a T.C. G-Force, all mixed dynamically using a SoundSculpture Switchblade. Good results, great flexibility, but WHOA a pain to program new stuff.)

I just realized, on reading the manual, that there MIGHT be something my current rig can do that the Axe FX II can't. Can you guys confirm for me?

THE PREMISE:
I'm big on the timed-echo, global tempo stuff, and I have 4 "workhorse" delays I use regularly:
(1.) "Natural Decay": A 1/4 note timed echo with slight 8th notes that works well for wet leads
(2.) "The Edge": The usual dotted-eighth stuff
(3.) "Subtle Eighths": A floaty delay that uses the dotted-eighth Edge technique, but wetter and more going on
(4.) "Fast 16ths": Every note creates a lot of notes very fast, producing a rapid beat

In each case it's basically the same delay algorithm with different settings: T.C. G-Force 4-tap delay but with differing amounts of cross-feedback between the delays, different note-values for synching with the tap tempo, and differing levels on each tap; i.e. on one patch the 3rd tap might be at 100% level, and on another it might be at 10% or even 0% (not used).

I use a separate footswitch that only governs the T.C. to determine which of my 4 "workhorses" I'm using on a given song. And because the signal path is identical on all 4 delays with the T.C., it's seamless if I change from one to another (say, "Fast 16ths" to "Natural Decay") mid-song.

I also have the ability, on each patch in my whole rig, to take these delays and fade them in and out (from 0% mix with the dry signal to 60% wet mix) using an expression pedal, controlling the mix through SoundSculpture Switchblade. So changing the wetness mid-song is seamless.

The result is everything is seamless: Change of delay patch, change of wetness, change of the two-amps-at-once underlying patch. All transition smoothly mid-song at will.

THE WORRY:
So...today I'm reading through the Axe FX II manual, and I find myself wondering...will I lose some of this capability with the Axe FX II?

I see that Axe FX II has seamless delays. BUT...it only has two of them. It doesn't have an "inventory" of four of them per patch, but only two.

You can add Multi-Delays or Mega-Delays in the patch as well...but they don't do the "seamless" thing.

So I can see how I could have two delays programmed in to each of my patches, one with "Natural Decay" and another with "The Edge"...and know that as I changed patches, the tails of the previous patch would seamlessly transfer to the next patch. So I'm golden as long as I only like having these two workhorse, go-to delays available.

But if I want my other two "workhorses" available in each patch, I'm stuck, aren't I? I could include them as Mega- or Multi-Delays, but then they wouldn't be seamless. And you can't have 4 normal delays per patch, right?

THE QUESTION:
So is there no workaround?

Or is there a workaround with this X/Y thing (which I admit I'm a bit vague on, not yet having ordered the Axe FX II)?

Basically, how would replicate, with just the Axe FX II, the same capabilities I currently have?

(Thanks to all who reply, sorry for the long detailed question.)
 
Each Axe-Fx II preset can use two fully independent Delay blocks. Don’t forget the additional two Multi Delay
blocks (p.78 ), the one Megatap Delay block (p. 75), and the new Looper block (p. 74).
 
It would seem that you can do what you want provided you don't max out your CPU processing capacity per preset:

16.11 Setting Up Spillover

16.11.1 Within a Single Preset

16.11.2 Across Different Presets

Have you read this section of the Owner's Manual yet? This might help you decide.
 
I've read your post a few times now, and I don't think there is a fundamental difference between the way you'd implement a Multitap Delay in the AxeFx compared to how you're using it with you G-Force. The G-Force has only one delay block, so I'm gathering that you are changing the settings of that delay block by changing the preset on the G-Force, correct? If that is the case, then using spillover across presets on the AxeFx would essentially do the same thing I believe.

If you really wanted to play it safe, you could switch presets from, say, MultiDelay 1 on preset 111, spilling over into MultiDelay 1 on preset 112 (so that MultiDelay 1 trails off smoothly), while engaging the second MultiDelay 2 block routed in the stream to take on the new delay settings for that preset. Then preset 113 would have MultiDelay 2 as the spillover from preset 112, while you put the Megatap Delay block in the signal stream...and then reapeat the process. I think you should be OK here (though I admit I'm still trying to digest everything, so...)

Mix control of delays is also very easy on the AxeFx. There are a lot of strategies that allow you to do this. I'm assuming here, that you'd be putting the delay blocks in a parallel stream to your primary tone stream. Putting delays in a serial path makes this a bit more complicated.

Other forum members can add their thoughts and clarifications on the subject. In the meantime, could you describe with some detail one of your typical preset tone/delay footpedal moves that you are concerned about replicating?

Also, DOWNLOAD AXE-EDIT software if you have not done so already. It allows you to virtually play with all of the effect blocks, place them on the grid/matrix, and toy with parameters. It is very instructive for new or prospective users who would like to dig in deeper to the programming capabilities of the AxeFx.
 
Jimfist:

Thanks for replying, although I don't think that's quite the kind of response I need.

Yep, I have read those sections of the Owner's Manual. As I mentioned in the original question, I know about Mega-Delay and Multi-Delay (also from reading the manual). But, from reading the manual, I know they don't support seamless tails over program changes; only the normal delay blocks can do that. So, since I need to keep all 4 kinds of echo able to be applied at will to any program, and seamlessly tail over during program changes to the next program, mentioning Mega-Delay and Multi-Delay doesn't help. (I don't think the Looper helps either.)

To really clarify the question, let me spell out a hypothetical situation to test what Axe FX II can do:

In the hypothetical Complex Song X, there is are the following sections: Intro, Verse1, Chorus1, Verse2, Chorus2, GuitarSolo, Outro.

There are 3 different tones used: Clean, Crunch, and a Lead Sound. These are (and MUST be) created as 3 different programs in the Axe FX II. Here is how they're used:

Intro: Crunch
Verses: Clean in first part of Verse, Crunch in second part.
Choruses: Crunch, with occasional Lead riffs as fills in-between vocal phrases
GuitarSolo: Lead, of course
Outro: Crunch

So far so good. However, in this same song, there is always some kind of delay playing throughout every part, and the rhythm of the echoes changes regularly, and all transitions must have seamless tails:

Intro (on Crunch program): Goes from 1/4 note echo initially to dotted 8ths halfway through
Verses (first Clean program, then Crunch program): Uses a fast 16ths pattern throughout
Choruses (Crunch and Lead): Dotted 8ths throughout
GuitarSolo (Lead program): Goes from 1/4 note echo to straight 8ths
Outro (Crunch program): Goes from dotted 8ths to straight 8ths at the end

Now: Given that song and its needs, can I set up the various delays in each patch in such a way that delay-transitions and program-transitions have seamless tails throughout?

Let's work through it....

The song starts with the Intro: Crunch program, with 1/4 note echo. So that's one of the two delays in the Crunch program. Then it changes to the dotted 8ths; so that's the other delay in the Crunch program,

Then the song changes to the Verse, using Clean, with a fast 16ths delay. That's the only delay needed in the Clean program. But, half-way through the Verse, we switch to a Crunch sound, while keeping the fast 16ths delay. But wait...! Crunch already had 2 delays in use (1/4 and dotted-8ths); can it have a delay with a fast 16ths pattern stored in there too? And still be seamless?

Now we hit the Chorus. The echo is consistent: dotted 8ths throughout. But it has to seamlessly keep those going as it changes from the Crunch sound to the Lead sound. Will that work?

Now we hit the GuitarSolo: All the Lead sound, but the first half uses 1/4 note echoes and the second half uses straight 8th note echoes. That's fine: We can fit 2 different delays in the Lead patch and keep 'em seamless...but wait; we already needed a delay with a dotted-8th pattern to be a part of the Lead patch during the Chorus. So we're short one delay; and we can't use Multi or Mega Delays since they aren't seamless across program changes.

Now we hit the Outro; we're back on the Crunch sound. But the echoes need to start off in a dotted-8ths pattern, and then seamlessly go to straight 8th-notes at the very end. Can we do that, given that the Crunch sound already had dotted-8ths and 1/4-note echoes built in for the Intro, and a fast 16ths sound for the Verses? Adding the ability to use this same program to do straight 8th notes means we now have 4 different echo patterns in the same program, all of which need to be seamless across program changes. Will that work?

The only way I can think of is that maybe this X/Y thing will allow me to take the 2 delays in my inventory for each patch, and program the "X" version of Delay 1 to hold a 1/4 note delay, the "Y" version of Delay 1 to hold a "straight 8ths" delay, the "X" version of Delay 2 to hold a "dotted 8ths" delay, and the "Y" version of Delay 2 to hold a "fast 16ths" delay. Would that work?

I hope you folks see the gist of my question now. I have these 4 "workhorse" echo patterns, and I like being able to apply them as wetness to any program at any time with seamless transitions.
 
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Aw, sorry about that, Jimfist, I was replying to your first two notes before I saw that you'd posted a third one.

Let me look at that, and see if it addresses my question better. (Thanks for taking the time to give my question a closer look.)

UPDATE: Okay, it looks like you were reading the question a bit more carefully -- thanks for that -- and offered a really great suggestion: Downloading Axe-Edit! It never occurred to me to try installing that and playing with it when I didn't yet have an Axe FX II! I should try that.

However, you proposed using Mega and Multi Delays. I don't think that'll work, because I need all delays to have seamless spillover. And section 16.11.2 of the manual says: "Delay does not include Multi-Delay or Mega Tap blocks." Doesn't that mean that Multi-Delay blocks and Mega Tap blocks cannot do spillover from one program to the next? So aren't they excluded, for my purposes?
 
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just curious, but I'm looking through the manual for info on the spillover delays. As I don't to much complicated stuff with echo, I have to plead ignorance with some of this...but...can you locate for me where it is documented that the Multidelay and Megatap delays do not spillover, or is this something garnered from experience? I was not aware that the AxeFx discriminated amongst the delay/reverb types with respect to spillover, so it would be good to see this confirmed as I've never heard this before...not that that has any relevance...

One thing to pay close attention to when using AxeEdit to look over the delay block parameters is the ability to assign modifier control to specific parameters. Your workarounds may lie within the complex programming of thes parameters when assigned to External Controllers, for example, the Master Time parameter, and/or the X/Y settings (for Amp tones), and possibly with clever use of panning/mixing if you are running a MONO setup.

Just curious, though, if it is possible to keep the G-Force and run it into the FX Loop of the AxeFx? (I see swine beat me to it!) It seems to be such a critical and specific thing you are doing, it may just wind up being the most practical solution that works (and still not bad for 3 rack spaces rather than 2). And the G-Force is a worthy piece (I love both of mine, LOL!) I'm not counting the AxeFx out yet, though, so let's let this steep for a bit on the forum. There are brighter bulbs than myself here who really know how this stuff works (Bakerman, M@, and many others)...so let's just see.
 
Swine:

Put the TC in the effects loop?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Well, I'm wondering if I might not have to do that. But it's a problem because (a.) I was really hoping to be able to consolidate everything into one box that I could easily program with a user-friendly computer-based editor, and (b.) I'm not going to have enough money for the Axe FX II unless I sell the G-Force along with some other gear. (Unless I delay buying the Axe FX II for a while longer, which I didn't want to do because I've already waited a long time.)

So I'd prefer if it could be done with just the Axe FX II.

What about this X/Y idea of mine? Does anybody know that feature well enough to tell me if it'll work?

Or, is there some other detail I'm missing that'll make this possible?
 
I generally keep 1 preset per song if possible. Spill over becomes much less problematic then.

We have 2 amp blocks with X and Y, 2 drive blocks with X/Y, 2 delays with X/Y, 2 stereo cab block with X/Y The same is true w/ Reverb, flanger, phaser, chorus, pitch.

So that allows for 4 amp blocks available (1/2 that simultaneously), 4 drive, 4 delays, 8 cabs (using stereo function), etc.

You can extend the delays to 8 delays per preset by using the dual delay as separate delays.

My foot controller has presets that call up which ever X/Y and block instance I needs. This way I have essentially 3 or 4 presets in imbedded in one preset on the axe-fx II. These can be completely different sounds all with in one preset.

Also, I am afraid that you would find the 30ms dropout between patch changes objectionable with the way you would be using things. Staying on one preset per song eliminates that.


Yes, you are correct. The multidelays do not spill over.



to answer your question about delays:
X/Y - changes the parameters in one delay block from one setting to another. They can be different delay types with all different settings. But only on can be active at a time.

Using the dual delay you can have four independent delays playing simultaneously. You loose a few parameters in the process (like independent eq, independent drive, independent diffussion, independent bit reduction, independent ducker) but most everything for a basic delay is there for independent use (time, tempo divisions, feedback, modulation).
 
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Javajunkie:

That sounds like an interesting approach.

I agree that the Dual Delays, which do spill over, seem like they could be a good way to go. I hadn't thought of treating each one like two separate delays. I was just thinking of the X/Y toggling thing.

This 30ms dropout -- is that more or less or the same as the dropout for the L6 Pod Xt or a Digitech 1101? I ask because if it's the same or less, then (after I had delay tails smoothing the gap over) perhaps I wouldn't notice that much. If it's faster than my existing gear, it'd be an improvement.

Still, the whole goal of all this is to have transitions be "studio smooth": Like somebody pulled down a fader on one rig and pushed another fader up at the same time, in a polished way. (It's the reason most patches in my current rig use one Pod for a lead sound and the other for rhythm, and I use an expression pedal to just roll forward into the lead when needed.)
 
I don't have an Axe-FX yet, but it seems like you want what I want with amp blocks.... so four switches... the first two activate delay 1 or delay 2. The second two switch between X/Y in each delay block. So you'd have to hit two footswitches to get from delay 1 to delay 4, but you should be able to get the spillovers working with that I think.
 
Javajunkie:

That sounds like an interesting approach.

I agree that the Dual Delays, which do spill over, seem like they could be a good way to go. I hadn't thought of treating each one like two separate delays. I was just thinking of the X/Y toggling thing.

This 30ms dropout -- is that more or less or the same as the dropout for the L6 Pod Xt or a Digitech 1101? I ask because if it's the same or less, then (after I had delay tails smoothing the gap over) perhaps I wouldn't notice that much. If it's faster than my existing gear, it'd be an improvement.

Still, the whole goal of all this is to have transitions be "studio smooth": Like somebody pulled down a fader on one rig and pushed another fader up at the same time, in a polished way. (It's the reason most patches in my current rig use one Pod for a lead sound and the other for rhythm, and I use an expression pedal to just roll forward into the lead when needed.)

It is less than pod xt.

You can use a volume block (balance parameter) or mixer to fade from one signal chain to another. That works with 2 separate fx chains or blocks.
 
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