Question for truly PRO guitar recording engineers.

S

stm113

Power User
In your professional/expert opinions in modern Rock, Hard Rock or Metal/Nu-Metal how important or essential is it to record multi amp set ups? I know the answer should always be to use your ears but I am curious of your opinions from a production technique standpoint. To really get a relevant, contemporary guitar tone should someone use multiple amps? If so whats your recommendations?-> especially as it would apply to the Axe FX2.

Looking forward to some good and educational discussion on stage this I hope. Thanks guys!
 
I'm more experienced with country and pop guitar tracking, but pretty much everything that has more than one guitar tracks uses different amps.

Most of the techniques are trying to get clarity + impact. It involves uses a clean amp like a Carr, Matchless, Dr.Z and a distorted amp like /13, Orange.

The clean amp would be for clarity with the distorted amp adding harmonic content and impact.

Really heavy distortion starts to approach noise in that it contains many frequencies. This eats up the frequency spectrum of a mix and makes it sound congested or dull. So ironically, the more distorted things are the smaller the mix can sound.

There is a real art to making a huge guitars fit into a mix. Very deft producers can make the guitars sound like they have gain for days but the mixes are pristine.
 
It really depends on the tonal ranges where the drums, bass, and vox sit in the frequency spectrum of a given song.

Gain for days is great, but sometimes you lose the picking rhythm and note definition.

It can also easily smear a bass, dull a snare drum, wipe out a kick drum, or get into a war of competing frequencies with the vox.

Sometimes tracking simultaneously with a clean amp setup and varying the proportions so it just gives the note definition is the answer.

Sometimes taking out the frequencies that stomp on the bass and drums is the answer.

Other times tracking in multiple passes with varying EQ & mic setups on the amp, various amps/cabs, or different guitars is the answer.

Lastly, the mixing EQ comes to the rescue in certain situations.

There are really a lot of variables to it and no "one size fits all" answer.
 
stm113 said:
In your professional/expert opinions in modern Rock, Hard Rock or Metal/Nu-Metal how important or essential is it to record multi amp set ups? I know the answer should always be to use your ears but I am curious of your opinions from a production technique standpoint. To really get a relevant, contemporary guitar tone should someone use multiple amps? If so whats your recommendations?-> especially as it would apply to the Axe FX2.

Looking forward to some good and educational discussion on stage this I hope. Thanks guys!
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Not a pro here, but I'd like you to clarify your question if possible...

Are you asking if multiple amps should be used for the purpose of multi-tracking particular parts (i.e., recording the same rhythm part 2 or 4 times played as identically as possible), or for layering leads, fill, etc?

In any case, I would imagine true pros to have various tricks up their sleeves to accomplish the same outcomes if a 2nd amp is not available at the time of tracking, such as varying mic placement, using different cabs, and so forth. Having multiple amps present probably is viewed in the same way as a library of plugins, tools in the toolbox, and you don't *need* to use every tool for every job.
 
Rotti said:
Not a pro here, but I'd like you to clarify your question if possible...

Are you asking if multiple amps should be used for the purpose of multi-tracking particular parts (i.e., recording the same rhythm part 2 or 4 times played as identically as possible), or for layering leads, fill, etc?

In any case, I would imagine true pros to have various tricks up their sleeves to accomplish the same outcomes if a 2nd amp is not available at the time of tracking, such as varying mic placement, using different cabs, and so forth. Having multiple amps present probably is viewed in the same way as a library of plugins, tools in the toolbox, and you don't *need* to use every tool for every job.
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Thakd you all for your replies. I guess in this case I was asking more for rhythms. Seems like every "pro" guitarist these days are using multi-amp setups in the studio its kinda got me wondering how essential is that or is it kinda one of those almost elitist or snobbish things where its more like "I'm so sophisticated that I have to use 2 or 3 amps together to get My tone" type of thing.

I write modern hard rock stuff and have always used 1 amp. I started wondering if I am missing something. FWIW there's not a whole lot of modern guitar tones that really grab me though except Tools 10,000 Days, Double Drives 1000 Yard Stare and the specific rhythm tone on Shinedown's song Devour. Those are the more modern tones that do it for me right now.
 
Here is the "secret" that I wish someone had told me.

All great producers are really working "backwards" to produce their hits.

They have a very focused vision of what they want the record to be.

Every decision about tracking, mixing, processing is in support of their vision for the song.

Once your end goal is clear. The details of how to track the guitars and how to mix them becomes more apparent.

They "seem" to start out saying things like "cut at 500hz", "use the Waves C4 multiband comp with these settings", "use this amp with an SM57 + R121" etc. But what they know is their settings and techniques are a means to an end. They have the end game already in their head. So their recommended settings only apply to what they are building. One size does not fit all. There are no magic settings. The dragon scroll is really blank.

When you are just starting out and you don't have the skill to have a clear idea of what you want, my advice is to compare what you are wanting to achieve to someone else's work. Ex. "I love track XXXX, I want my drums and guitars to sound like that."

Now you have a goal in mind and can make decisions to lead you to that goal.

After you do this often enough, your own style, preferences will emerge, and your end goal will be more clear and the details of the tracking and mixing will be more obvious.
 
I think the OP might be referring to more than one amp/cab at once for a single guitar track, like some producer/engineers use a little labs multi-output direct box to feed multiple amps and cabs, then select the amp(s) they want or blend them all in various quantities.. I know some guys work this way - not sure how effective it really is.
I always thought running my guitar into two amps at once - one marshall/one fender, would sound twice as good, until i actually tried it, and discovered that it just sounded like single amp with a tone somewhere in between the two amps. but, i have heard that one of the producers of Metalica did what i described above with the Little labs breakout box and multiple amps/cabs - lots of them - but maybe that was just to get the versatility after the session was over and final mixing began.
 
I have seen the multiple amps with a single guitar track but done with reamping. Not live tracking. But whatever gets you there is the right answer :)

I see a lot of two amps with two different players tracking at the same time. Sometimes doubling parts or playing two parts that interlock to sound like one bigger part.
 
The sound you get sit's in the mix via whatever method you use to put it there. I had an 8X Platinum album engineers' eyes light up when he heard my Marler Strat thru my Ultra on a track I was playing him 4 years ago. He is also an impeccable guitarist so his curiosity and questions that followed, about my rig, were definitely not due to my playing because he plays circles around me. But the tone kicked butt.

Tool is amazing. They are an awesome reference for anyone into recording. Not sure if you read this article but their sound is not something you achieve by any particular amp combo and more like bathrecords states as a vision and a plan and take all the incidentals, accidents and phenomenon that come along with it.
 
@barhrecords

really great posts

@stm113
to biamp and blend was really popular a couple of years ago, especially for heavy rhyhmn guitars. a often used combination was for example a blend of a 5150 and a mesa rectifier together to yield a really massive sound.

somehow i have the impression that this production method has dissapeared a little bit in the last years and it became more common to run the signal through just one amps and use multible microphones and blend those together, like using a the infamous SM57 and R121 combination.

bascially what you take is to blend 2 extremes tonal sources together.. one very focused sharp sound, and one very growly deep sound source for example

this does work extremly well, but its not essential.. there are many great recordings out there that are just a single amp and a single microphone in front of cab.

on tip from me, once you are going this route, really start commiting to a sound. and get rid of all the options.. find a good sound / combination, use whatever amps / microphones combinations you like and sounds good to you and your vision.. and then record the takes and record the blend to a single track only.
and live with your decision and start from there to build up your song,
because that is what many pro-producers are doing.. commiting, using what they got and going forward
let your vision determinate your sound for you, not the opposite.

oh, if you have a distortion track and you are missing a little bit of attack, what helps is that you also recrod a dry DI Track with it and blend it to the distortion signal in a little amount.. you can experiment with HP/LP Filter on the DI Track to lock it better in

i have also seen guys that putting an LDC or SDC microphone in front of the electric guitar whilst recording the takes and recorded that along with the amp signal and blended it to add another texture layer that made the guitar sound more special, it all depends on the music and song., many times this may be too much, but for some certain parts this is maybe the exactly thing thats adds the little extra tickle to it so that the guitars stand out a little bit more
 
Barhrecords hit the nail on the head.

For the truly professional time = money so they will mostly go with tried and tested methods to achieve a goal. That may or may not involve a double amp setup but in a lot of cases (not all.... a lot more people with money at their disposal use the studio to experiment) this decision has already been made by the professional guitarist in pre production with the help of the producer.

The danger with using a single amp is the same as using drum samples in that you can get a very homogenous result (eg. EMG's through a Tube Screamer into a Rectifier and 4x12). Using 2 or more amps is a way of avoiding this, but what can also avoid that pitfall is using guitars with varying sounds that may not necessarily by used in the genre (eg. Josh Homme's guitars along with, it must be said, his amp choices). The danger with the latter is that you can end up with a unique but uninspiring sound and not a lot of people will want to listen to a recording that treads new sonic ground.

So in short, also consider using differing guitars along with differing amps. If you want to chase a particular sound the wealth of information out there will yield the methods and the Axe (especially with the Tone Match feature) will give you the tools. Whether that is desirable and suits your purpose is up to you.

Not to sound clichéd, but absolutely use your ears, but do so with a firm goal in mind, and make sure that your playing style suits that goal. After all, Mick Thompson uses far less gain than people think and has clarity and tightness through excellent technique.
 
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