Question for FAS re scenes / x-y

clarky

Axe-Master
this is not really a wish [although guess it has been in the past]

is there a major technical difficulty / hurdle that'd prevent scenes and / or x-y being modifier controlled
as opposed to being controlled via a static assignment to a CC?

just wondering if this is something FAS are interested in exploring
or would modifier control be prohibitively difficult [in which case I'd stop thinking about the possibilities]

like say..
this isn't a wish.. more of a curiosity
 
right now, you can only switch scenes or x-y via a CC
I'm interested to see if this could be done via a modifier instead..
this means you can switch scenes / x-y with greater felxibility on a per preset basis

so in one preset, modif1 may switch scenes.. and in another, modif2..
it means I could use all kinds of different triggers to make the switch...
in my case it'd be mostly an external - like when I switch from riff to solo..
but what I don't want to do is to set the scene or x-y to the same cc as my riff-solo ext switch..
cos that means scenes will flip on every single preset [and there will be presets where I don't want this to happen..
 
this is not really a wish [although guess it has been in the past]

is there a major technical difficulty / hurdle that'd prevent scenes and / or x-y being modifier controlled
as opposed to being controlled via a static assignment to a CC?

just wondering if this is something FAS are interested in exploring
or would modifier control be prohibitively difficult [in which case I'd stop thinking about the possibilities]

like say..
this isn't a wish.. more of a curiosity
And along those same lines, x/y and scenes currently share the same set of modifiers, is it possible these could be independent of each other. Ie., if I set up Amp X to have a range of Gain or Volume controlled via an Ext. Modifier, Amp Y automatically uses the same values for those settings. Very unlikely two different amps would ever be set up the same, rendering this useless.
 
I've added this to my wish list as well. Would love modifiers to be saved individually per scene and not per preset. Its not a killer but would help out a ton when adding your modifiers to ones scenes.
 
I think that's a situation for presets. We are requesting a bunch of things for scenes that already exist with presets, a function with fewer limitations that scenes.

It seems like the short dropout between presets is the main reason for abandoning presets, yes?

You can have different modifiers per amp and a whole bunch more with presets :)
 
I would just like an option to unlink modifiers between x and y. Maybe in the modifier at the bottom under pc reset an option to unlink modifiers so y could have no modifier or a different sweep or min max or start end
 
maybe I'm not explaining my question well...
imagine this..

I want to switch from riffing to soloing
- I could x-y to switch amp type
- and simultaneously alter other parms in other fx [vol block / reverb / delay for example] which I'd do via modifiers

I want to do it with one switch
this means I have to assign X-Y [or a scene change] and the modifier to the same CC

in a different preset I want to use the same switch to alter a few things via modifiers..
but I do not want to x-y [or change scene] but now I can't because the x-y [scene] is assigned to the same CC

if however x-y / scene were changeable via modifiers, I could opt to use these or not on a per preset basis rather than on every single preset [which is the case right now because x-y and scene changes are statically assigned to a CC]
 
Oh I get it now! The X/Y via modifier has been a request for a while now. Adding scenes to that request makes sense. Although, I think the scene function should be able to accomplish that right?

Your concept is hinged on the same switch on the controller being able to do different things per preset enabled by modifiers.

With scenes, instead of thinking "same switch" maybe also think "same scene" to change everything you want at the same time.

So old thought would be "with one switch and all modifiers set correctly, I can switch to Amp1 Y, engage filter for boost, turn on chorus and delay and turn off drive pedal. Pressing it again reverses all of that."

With scenes you could accomplish the exact same thing, only you'd need a 2nd switch to return back to the previous state... Or another completely different state. Lets say we used Scene 8 for that special switch.

Then in a different preset, Scene 8 controls a bunch of different things and you only need to set the bypass and x/y state to set it up. Don't want to change to Amp1 Y in this preset? You dont have to. Even have a different volume level for the scene. You also don't have to go into every block's menu and mess with modifiers and start/end slopes.

Yes? No?

To me, Scenes are useful for changing a bunch of things at the same time, similar to how I would use a modifier for bypass states before. Many people are treating Scenes as the new presets though, and forgetting about the power of the preset with 8 specific scenes a lá modifier/grouped effects.
 
I thought though that a scene could only change a few basic things..
like level, pan, x-y, bypass and maybe a couple of other things...
but it couldn't for example increase the input gain of a delay or change the gain setting in an amp for example..
if I've understood this correctly, for that sort of thing you'd need modifiers

which is why I'm wondering if everything can be done via modifiers..
so a modifier can switch scene for the broad brush strokes, x-y to switch cab or amp or something else, an the details can be handled at parameter level..
this would effectively claw back the number of things that would need to be assigned to a modifier cos a scene could handle a bunch of basics in a single swipe

EDIT - just wondering that if scene / x-y could be made available to modifier control, that this could be a very powerful option for guys like me that end up having to use 24 out of 24 modifiers and wish they had more of them
and also it could greatly simplify complex presets which I imagine particularly creative guys like Simeon could find interesting / useful
 
Ok I see. You want to fine tune parameters in blocks while changing scenes. That's really a lot of stuff going on!

My method is to have that gain change, for example, be adjusted when you change the scene, so amp1 x to amp1 y for the gain change. But assuming you are maxed out on Amp1 & 2 XY for 4 totally different sounds, I can see how the scene change won't accomplish the gain change and a modifier is needed.

So yeah that would be neat to accommodate your wish. But again to me, wow that is a lot of detail to organize in one preset/scene.

I'd rather just program those parameter differences with the Scenes as I just described or with Presets.
 
Yeah, you can make a gain change or make a delay wetter, simply by changing scenes and using the X axis be your baseline, and the Y axis be the "more gain" or "more delay".

If you want a different amp or a different delay, use another preset entirely. If you remain in one preset, and you have a modifier attached to the mix parameter of a delay on the X axis, your modifier will also be tied to the mix parameter of the Y axis. If you do not want this, again, change to another preset.

I don't know what type of foot controller you are using, but if, for instance, you were using the Liquid Foot, you could set up Liquid Foot presets, that send CC info at each Liquid Foot preset. So you could have 8 liquid foot presets, that correspond to the 8 scenes you have in the Fractal, and you could send a refreshing CC message that could set the delay mix to the percentage that you want to have, so even though you might have a modifier tied to the mix, and that modifier would operate the X or Y state of the delay, the midi controller itself, could be made to send and set the mixture to your desire while at the same time changing scenes or remaining in the same scene for that matter.

I was already setting up Liquid Foot presets to change through different sounds to get me through a song, changing X/Y's and mix and gain levels along the way. What scenes gave me, that I didn't have before, is the ability to set my effects loop send and return gain, and the overall volume for each scene. And that helped me even out the volumes as I engage/disengage different effects, or intentionally boost or cut the volume to fit a song or guitar solo. Previously, I had to do that with CC controllers. Scenes handles it better and with easy visual readout on the screen.
 
here's roughly what happens when I switch from rhythm to lead

- GEQ1 bypasses [providing: rff tone level and eq]
- GEQ2 un-bypasses [providing: level boost, reduction in low bass and highs]
- delay un-bypassses [to add delay / bypass=mute fx out]
- pitch shifter wet level increases [to widen stereo image]
- reverb input gain increases [to increase the reverb level from almost 0]
- amp2 mutes [cos I riff will two amps panned hard]
- amp1 pans from left to centre
- vol2 boosts by 10dB [placed before amp1 to generate more gain]

riff tone is high-gain 5150mk3 and a VH4 panned wide
solo tone is just the 5150mk3 [now panned centre] which is:
louder, dirtier, with less top and bottom, and has delay, reverb and a little dual detune

and on top of this, I have my clean <- -> dirty morphing setup via EXP1
which is a huge pile of other controller stuff..
amp x-y would completely break that because the modifiers assigned to x will be the same for y
so long as there is no independence between x and y modifiers I just can't use x-y with the amp block
that said.. I can see other very interesting x-y applications in other blocks.. like pitch x-y..

just a point to note..
right now my presets work perfectly and that is without scenes or x-y..
that said, I can see some very interesting possibilities that scenes and x-y could bring..
but so long as they are not modifier controllable, they'll make things difficult with respect to my current approach to preset design..

which is why I'm asking the question to the very clever FAS folk
- would modifier control over x-y and scene selection be too difficult to implement to make worth considering?
--- if yes: no probs... I'll carry on as I am and continue to be a happy bunny
--- if no and maybe it's something that could be considered at some point in the future: I'll have some extremely interesting questions to ask of my config and how to evolve and refine it... this could open up some very nice possibilities that would no doubt allow my preset design to head in a slightly different and certainly richer direction..
 
is there a major technical difficulty / hurdle that'd prevent scenes and / or x-y being modifier controlled
as opposed to being controlled via a static assignment to a CC?

I could imagine this will not work by design: A modifier is attached to an parameter IN the space of a paramter-set (X or Y). so, if you want say through Modifier: "Now leave the parameter-set X and change to Y" it would kill the modifier given this order also ... no?! Switching via CC is different: Here, the "commander" is not fit IN the scene direct like a modifier is ...

just my thoughts ...
 
I'd guess that technically, it'd be possible to assign anything to be controlled by anything [cc or modifier]
it'd simply be a matter of coding for it..

the only real difficulty I can imagine is that there would be a possibility of a clash of control
essentially a parm being hit by two means of control simultaneously..
ie.. the drive parm getting set when you flip X to Y and it also may be assigned to a modifier that could want to set the same parm to another value..
so in such an event, there would need to be some sort of prioritisation
as in, modifier always takes precedence because it's the most intricate form of control.. or something like that
whatever way, the main thing is that we'd be told what takes priority and can therefore work within, around or maybe even exploit it
or maybe even the priority could be user assignable

anyways...
I was just hoping someone from FAS could answer the question..
not something they'd be held to, but at least from a theoretical standpoint..
like.. possible... not possible.. or maybe even 'not sure and would take time to consider'
 
I'd guess that technically, it'd be possible to assign anything to be controlled by anything [cc or modifier]
it'd simply be a matter of coding for it..

the only real difficulty I can imagine is that there would be a possibility of a clash of control
essentially a parm being hit by two means of control simultaneously..
ie.. the drive parm getting set when you flip X to Y and it also may be assigned to a modifier that could want to set the same parm to another value..
so in such an event, there would need to be some sort of prioritisation
as in, modifier always takes precedence because it's the most intricate form of control.. or something like that
whatever way, the main thing is that we'd be told what takes priority and can therefore work within, around or maybe even exploit it
or maybe even the priority could be user assignable

anyways...
I was just hoping someone from FAS could answer the question..
not something they'd be held to, but at least from a theoretical standpoint..
like.. possible... not possible.. or maybe even 'not sure and would take time to consider'

Still happy I followed you down the preset creation rabbit hole Clarky, lol! I avoid switching presets, Scenes and most x-y switching to get seamless transitions between sounds. I get absolutely zero latency, dropouts, pops or glitches, especially with reverb and delay trails because I use modifiers to control everything. Would really love to incoporate Scenes because I see the potential for simplifying some presets, but will not give up seamless control I have now to use it. The ability to unlink x-y settings and use independent modifiers within different Scenes would be huge! Like Clarky, I find myself trying to come up with creative ways to claw back some CPU! I would also really be interested in finding out if this is possible, not when, or why don't we have it yet, just if it's a possibility.
 
I'm awaiting the new AE before I delve into scenes, however, I've gotten around the situation you describe by assigning all of the X/Y choices to one CC#. So I have a generic X/Y IA switch on my MFC. I can pick and choose what I want to change. If a block is to remain unchanged, I just copy it from X to Y. If I don't want to use a block on X, but I do on Y, I just zero out the mix on that block in X. Combined with 2 pedals set to control various modifiers and a mixer block, there's very little I can't accomplish with this setup. If I'm concerned about a seamless transition for a particular song, I make sure I use two (or four) parallel chains with the mixer block(s) tied to a pedal. I would say I use this setup on 75 percent of my presets.
 
I'm awaiting the new AE before I delve into scenes, however, I've gotten around the situation you describe by assigning all of the X/Y choices to one CC#. So I have a generic X/Y IA switch on my MFC. I can pick and choose what I want to change. If a block is to remain unchanged, I just copy it from X to Y. If I don't want to use a block on X, but I do on Y, I just zero out the mix on that block in X. Combined with 2 pedals set to control various modifiers and a mixer block, there's very little I can't accomplish with this setup. If I'm concerned about a seamless transition for a particular song, I make sure I use two (or four) parallel chains with the mixer block(s) tied to a pedal. I would say I use this setup on 75 percent of my presets.

I do something similar now as well. The Mixer blocks are incredibly useful, and take up very little CPU. I wish we had a few more, and wish the final Output Mixer was also able to be controlled via Modifiers.
All in all the control available in the Axe II is awesome, so many ways to accomplish your goals. I will eventually use Scenes I'm sure, but the shared Modifiers for x-y states limit what I'm able to accomplish. This was no different before Scenes were introduced, but still limits control too much for what I do now.

Currently to work around this, I start my chain with a Wah and Phaser block, but split from there into two parallel chains. Each contains a Compressor, Drive or PEQ, Amp, GEQ and Filter Block.

Filter Block is set up using an Envelope to control low end.

The two chains come back together in a Mixer block that is hard panned L/R and feeds a stereo Cab block, this way each Amp has it's own Cab.

I have one amp for Clean, the other Dirty and use an Expression pedal assigned to a Mixer block to sweep between Clean and Dirty tones.

The two GEQ's are assigned to one IA to handle lead boosts and are tweaked to best fit the Amp being used. I also assign modifiers to same IA to increase Delay and Reverb for solos. When the Solo IA is active, I can use the Expression pedal to have a Clean or Distorted lead tone.

This gives me 4 sounds, Clean, Clean Lead, Distorted Rhythm, and Distorted lead with just one IA and one Expression pedal. I still have the other IA's available to pull in whatever effect I may want to add as well.
I split the chain again toward the end to run Reverb and Delay in parallel into another Mixer block to keep things a little cleaner.
Doing this has allowed me to use a single preset for an entire song instead of switching Scenes or presets. I will use x-y occasionally for Delay block, but have found with Amps and Drive blocks especially, the switching is too obvious.
I'm certainly open to suggestions though, if anybody has a cleaner way of doing it I'd love the input!
 
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