Question about unwanted exaggerated frequencies around 2.5K?

@kai_p

I do not hear the annoying metallic sound going through my traditional amp head.

@NeoSound

Yes, Marshalls are known for their upper mid frequencies. That is not what we are taking about, some of us are struggling with a metallic annoying artifact.

@skolacki

I am running through traditional guitar cabs.

@FractalAudio

When I get back from my family vacation I will try your suggestions

Thank you all, have a great 4th of July!
 
Yes, Marshalls are known for their upper mid frequencies. That is not what we are taking about, some of us are struggling with a metallic annoying artifact.

I didn't say Marshall, I said tube amps. No one is providing examples of this metallic artifact but are still talking about it, I don't hear it (at least beyond the realm of electric guitar sounds).
 
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@4406cuda I have the exact same problem as you, with exactly the same amp models (classic Fender + Marshall). This was immensely annoying for me, since I tried for weeks to fix this. I think I have roughly identified the problem recently. Let me describe it below.

I noticed the problem is not present at all with my Gibson SG, but with my Ibanez JS2410 the sound of the A string is horrible. So I sampled the raw input of the A string on both guitars and did a frequency spectrum analysis. If you have a look at the attached diagram, you can see that the Ibanez has a lot more pronounced overtones in the range of 2.5 kHz. I investigated this, and my impression is that the reason is a combination of the acoustic sound of the guitar with the position of the neck pickup, which seems to make this frequency range very prominent. (I tried to move a similar pickup to different positions on the neck and noticed that the chosen positioning is kind of "worst case" amplifying the frequencies around 2.5 kHz, while at other positions the problem disappears.)

When I use a parametric EQ block before the amp block and use a peaking filter with -10 dB and Q around 3.5 at 2.4 kHz, the sound becomes OK. Of course, this is kind of a strong change in a frequency range that is very important for the overall sound, and I wished I could have achieved this with lesser tweaking, but that is the best I was able to achieve. As mentioned, with my Gibson SG I don't have to do anything here, the sound is very good without any EQ-ing.

So I somehow had a first impression of what causes the problem, namely pronounced overtones of the guitar. To further investigate this, I had a look at the influence of the bright switch and bright cap value for the Fender and Marshall amp models. From what I know, the early Marshalls like JTM 45 I like to use are very similar to Fender amps of that time. This might be an explanation for why the problem appears with these models.

By switching off power amp modeling, I was able to see that the problem actually appears before the power amp stage. The annoying frequencies are created in the input/preamp stage with turned on bright switch and bright cap values above a certain threshold. So I tried to figure out what the influence of the bright cap is here. To this end, I placed a synthesizer block before the amp block, with a relatively low output level of something like -20 dB, according to the somehow lower levels of the annoying frequencies in the raw guitar signal, compared to the base frequencies. Then I tried different frequencies for a sine wave in the synth block and had a look at the shown output level in the grid overview, with bright switch off and on. I had the impression that for the amp models we are discussing, activated bright switch raises the frequencies we are talking about by a really large amount, which in case of my Ibanez seems to raise these frequencies to a level at which they become really annoying.

As a comparison, I tried my very old Line 6 POD 2.0 and it shows a similar behavior for the Ibanez, so I think the observed behavior is somehow "the truth", but I don't have access to a real tube amp to check this.

So to summarize, I think the problem might be caused by using a guitar model with pronounced overtones in the frequency range we are talking about, and that we are observing a somehow accurate amp/cab modeling here, i.e., what we get is simply how the guitar + (simulated or not) amp sounds like.

However, I hope that I am wrong with this, since I would like to get a good sound without using such a strong EQ-ing of my raw guitar signal. Turning off the bright switch is also not a really nice solution, since I found it is not trivial for me to EQ the signal by other means (parametric/graphical EQ) to get the desired overdriven sound with correct amount of "bite".

So I would appreciate any hints which could help me to improve things here, or also falsifying or supporting my observations a lot! Intuitively, I think it is somehow strange if there are some guitar models which sound very nice and some which sound totally crappy und unusable for these simple amps like classic Fender and Marshalls!

Joe's signature pickups are known for resonate spikes.
 
@4406cuda I have the exact same problem as you, with exactly the same amp models (classic Fender + Marshall). This was immensely annoying for me, since I tried for weeks to fix this. I think I have roughly identified the problem recently. Let me describe it below.

I noticed the problem is not present at all with my Gibson SG, but with my Ibanez JS2410 the sound of the A string is horrible. So I sampled the raw input of the A string on both guitars and did a frequency spectrum analysis. If you have a look at the attached diagram, you can see that the Ibanez has a lot more pronounced overtones in the range of 2.5 kHz. I investigated this, and my impression is that the reason is a combination of the acoustic sound of the guitar with the position of the neck pickup, which seems to make this frequency range very prominent. (I tried to move a similar pickup to different positions on the neck and noticed that the chosen positioning is kind of "worst case" amplifying the frequencies around 2.5 kHz, while at other positions the problem disappears.)

When I use a parametric EQ block before the amp block and use a peaking filter with -10 dB and Q around 3.5 at 2.4 kHz, the sound becomes OK. Of course, this is kind of a strong change in a frequency range that is very important for the overall sound, and I wished I could have achieved this with lesser tweaking, but that is the best I was able to achieve. As mentioned, with my Gibson SG I don't have to do anything here, the sound is very good without any EQ-ing.

So I somehow had a first impression of what causes the problem, namely pronounced overtones of the guitar. To further investigate this, I had a look at the influence of the bright switch and bright cap value for the Fender and Marshall amp models. From what I know, the early Marshalls like JTM 45 I like to use are very similar to Fender amps of that time. This might be an explanation for why the problem appears with these models.

By switching off power amp modeling, I was able to see that the problem actually appears before the power amp stage. The annoying frequencies are created in the input/preamp stage with turned on bright switch and bright cap values above a certain threshold. So I tried to figure out what the influence of the bright cap is here. To this end, I placed a synthesizer block before the amp block, with a relatively low output level of something like -20 dB, according to the somehow lower levels of the annoying frequencies in the raw guitar signal, compared to the base frequencies. Then I tried different frequencies for a sine wave in the synth block and had a look at the shown output level in the grid overview, with bright switch off and on. I had the impression that for the amp models we are discussing, activated bright switch raises the frequencies we are talking about by a really large amount, which in case of my Ibanez seems to raise these frequencies to a level at which they become really annoying.

As a comparison, I tried my very old Line 6 POD 2.0 and it shows a similar behavior for the Ibanez, so I think the observed behavior is somehow "the truth", but I don't have access to a real tube amp to check this.

So to summarize, I think the problem might be caused by using a guitar model with pronounced overtones in the frequency range we are talking about, and that we are observing a somehow accurate amp/cab modeling here, i.e., what we get is simply how the guitar + (simulated or not) amp sounds like.

However, I hope that I am wrong with this, since I would like to get a good sound without using such a strong EQ-ing of my raw guitar signal. Turning off the bright switch is also not a really nice solution, since I found it is not trivial for me to EQ the signal by other means (parametric/graphical EQ) to get the desired overdriven sound with correct amount of "bite".

So I would appreciate any hints which could help me to improve things here, or also falsifying or supporting my observations a lot! Intuitively, I think it is somehow strange if there are some guitar models which sound very nice and some which sound totally crappy und unusable for these simple amps like classic Fender and Marshalls!
Originally developed for legendary guitarist Steve Vai, the Evolution features 4-conductor wiring, ceramic magnets, and DiMarzio's patented dual-resonance configuration, which produces more harmonic overtones than conventional humbuckers. A great pickup for pushing your amp to its full tonal potential, this humbucker is ideal for high-octane live performance applications - while giving you plenty of definition for the studio, too. Take your axe's performance to the next level with the Evolution!

Joe's pickups use a similar scheme.
 
You probably know this, but I just want to clarify what the bright switch and bright cap actually do.

When the bright switch on, the bright cap bypasses the master volume control at high frequencies. In other words, it turns them all the way up. The bigger the cap, the stronger that effect is, and the further down in frequency it extends.


The bright caps are on the drive, or on the volume with non master amps.
 
This is likely the resonant peak of your guitar pickups. You can shift the peak by using a longer/shorter cable or turning on the input capacitor in the Input Z. Or try a cable with different capacitance.

I am guessing that Analogman Buffer may not be helping either with the capacitance. Couldn't hurt to try eliminating it.
 
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It's your guitar pickups. I dial in most of my presets for a Les Paul or Stratocaster and it sounds great. If I use my Steve Vai Jem or Joe Satriani Ibanez JS2410 guitars it sounds way too bright and piercing. I can make good sounding presets for those two guitars, but I have to dial them in differently, and I usually still have to roll off some of the treble with the tone knob.

I'm not at my Axe FXIII at the moment, but if I remember correctly I had to turn the presence, treble, midrange, and drive all down a bit with my Ibanez guitars.
 
Thank you all for your replies and your help, especially @FractalAudio for your suggestion with the resonant peak!

I don't have different cables available, but I read that putting a resistive load into the overall system will lead to the resonant peak being lower. So I quickly tried the following: I turned down the volume pot on the guitar and compensated that by increasing the level in my FM3 block grid. Indeed this significantly reduces the unwanted frequencies and things sound a lot better!

So I think lowering the resonant peak or changing its frequency via some modification of my guitar's circuitry, or using different cables could really be a good solution for the problem!

Thanks a lot again!
 
I am guessing that Analogman Buffer may not be helping either with the capacitance. Couldn't hurt to try eliminating it.
You might be right, I was trying to avoid using a single cable longer than 20 feet or using a wireless system. I will try it without the buffer.
 
It's your guitar pickups. I dial in most of my presets for a Les Paul or Stratocaster and it sounds great. If I use my Steve Vai Jem or Joe Satriani Ibanez JS2410 guitars it sounds way too bright and piercing. I can make good sounding presets for those two guitars, but I have to dial them in differently, and I usually still have to roll off some of the treble with the tone knob.

I'm not at my Axe FXIII at the moment, but if I remember correctly I had to turn the presence, treble, midrange, and drive all down a bit with my Ibanez guitars.
I will try my music man axis and Tom Anderson cobra and see if it makes a difference.

Thanks All!
 
I would like to determine the cause. I do not see many posts on this forum about it and I am wondering if it is how I configuring and connecting my AXE III.

I have the same issue with all my guitars with have passive medium output humbuckers. On all my guitars and on most of my presets there is this noticeable annoying frequency around 2.5K. It is "metallic plinky" sound.
I have guitars with a "metallic plinky" sound around 2.5 KHz whenever I'm resting my palm on the strings, even when doing so very lightly, so I wouldn't call it palm muting. It's a harmonic reinforced by a resonance in the guitar and is more pronounced on the A and D strings than others. I have no idea if it's the same as what you're hearing, but in my case it seems to be a property of the bridge saddle and I've mitigated it somewhat by putting something under the string as it goes over the saddle.
 
I have guitars with a "metallic plinky" sound around 2.5 KHz whenever I'm resting my palm on the strings, even when doing so very lightly, so I wouldn't call it palm muting. It's a harmonic reinforced by a resonance in the guitar and is more pronounced on the A and D strings than others. I have no idea if it's the same as what you're hearing, but in my case it seems to be a property of the bridge saddle and I've mitigated it somewhat by putting something under the string as it goes over the saddle.
I hear it mostly on the high E.
 
@4406cuda …That is not what we are taking about, some of us are struggling with a metallic annoying artifact.

I have to admit this problem around 2.5k is real but I have heard this with my guitars through tube amps as well.
But no opinion yet whether the modeller is contributing...
And it is possible to mitigate the issue, thank God, with the axe.(love the axe)

I play clean almost all the time, but folks who use lots of distortion and effects may not run into this as often?
 
The bright caps are on the drive, or on the volume with non master amps.
Exactly, or to write it differently, bright caps are on the pots that control input gain (whether they are labeled gain or drive on master volume amps or volume on non-master volume amps). So for easy reading let's just call it "gain" here.

As you turn gain up, the bright cap becomes less and less effective until at about 6-7 it's effectively doing nothing. A good way to play with bright caps is to combat it with your guitar volume and tone controls. Amp too harsh? Turn up the gain and roll back your guitar volume/tone instead. Of course with Fractal this isn't a real problem since you can just disable it, try a different model, do other tone shaping etc.
 
@4406cuda …That is not what we are taking about, some of us are struggling with a metallic annoying artifact.

I have to admit this problem around 2.5k is real but I have heard this with my guitars through tube amps as well.
But no opinion yet whether the modeller is contributing...
And it is possible to mitigate the issue, thank God, with the axe.(love the axe)

I play clean almost all the time, but folks who use lots of distortion and effects may not run into this as often?

Do you run the Realtime Analyzer? I can't find much of anything jumping in the 2.5 range there. I also dial the input EQ curve to each guitar (pickups) between 630 -900 ish. The mid hump cleans the tone up some how and it sound focused but it's a different range for each guitar. I'm curious how you are measuring or reading the unwanted frequency.

1656936645251.png
 
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Do you run the Realtime Analyzer? I can't find much of anything jumping in the 2.5 range there. I also dial the input EQ curve to each guitar (pickups) between 630 -900 ish. The mid hump cleans the tone up some how and it sound focused but it's a different range for each guitar. I'm curious how you are measuring or reading the unwanted frequency.

View attachment 104448
I used the parametric eq block.
 
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