question about gain staging with blocks

henryrobinett

henryrobinett

Fractal Fanatic
Now of course just when I put wah blocks in I started clipping. So I dropped the level in the amp. I used to drop the level in effect blocks (reverb, delays, etc), which had varying levels of success. BUT when I dropped the level in the amps I, of course, dropped the level going to the other blocks after it which changed the sound - not of the amp but made everything way too wet. Wouldn't it make more sense to drop the output level rather than the amp level if you have everything balanced in the blocks? Building presets is different, but if the preset is already built? Whay say you Fractal gurus?
 
Depends on the preset design. Can you post a grid picture?
 
Adjusting amp level shouldn't make later effects increase in apparent mix, with some exceptions like drive/compression on the wet signal or delay ducking (which is compression w/ dry as sidechain, really). Can you post the preset?
 
Hm. I'm speaking generally. Let's see if I can find an example one later. I have to run right now. Thanks. But I don't know why the level wouldn't change for later effects like reverb and multi delay, etc..
 
I don't know what a preset or a screen shot of a grid is going to show. What am I missing here? If you lower the amp level, there's going to be more reverb or delay if those follow the amp. Basic mixing. Even if the amp level doesn't feed into the following blocks, but especially if it does. So if the ratios are all good, the levels between effects, why WOULDN'T lowering the amp level effect the balance?
 
henryrobinett said:
I don't know what a preset or a screen shot of a grid is going to show. What am I missing here? If you lower the amp level, there's going to be more reverb or delay if those follow the amp. Basic mixing. Even if the amp level doesn't feed into the following blocks, but especially if it does. So if the ratios are all good, the levels between effects, why WOULDN'T lowering the amp level effect the balance?
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Because the output of the reverb would be proportional to its input. So lower the input, i.e. the amp block feeding it, and the output of the reverb should get lower too, wet and dry.

But as above, there are so many routing options etc. posting a preset showing the routing would be the best.
 
henryrobinett said:
I don't know what a preset or a screen shot of a grid is going to show. What am I missing here? If you lower the amp level, there's going to be more reverb or delay if those follow the amp. Basic mixing. Even if the amp level doesn't feed into the following blocks, but especially if it does. So if the ratios are all good, the levels between effects, why WOULDN'T lowering the amp level effect the balance?
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Because the wet/dry are ratios. The proportions stay the same.

If the effect is linear (ie., no distortion or compression) whether the signal coming into the effect is louder or quieter the proportion of wet and dry will be the same.

In your example the reverb and delay would be less as well because they are being fed a lower signal. If the amp is feeding the Rev or Dly block, ff you lower the amp level, you lower the signal getting to the Rev/Dly block. So the the rev/dly level would be reduced as well.
 
Your reverb gets its signal from the amp, right? Keep it simple, adjust the amp and keep all other blocks at 0 so the level doesn't change if you need to bypass them.
 
henryrobinett said:
I f you lower the amp level, there's going to be more reverb or delay if those follow the amp. Basic mixing.
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That's not how it works in the axe. That's not how it works with most external reverb and delay units either.

If I sing quietly into a mic that has a reverb effect after it, the reverb isn't going to be mega loud compared to when I sing at a normal volume. Most delay and reverb is an "echo" of the input signal and its loudness (once the initial settings are set) depend on the intensity of the input signal.

Even a simple reverb guitar amp works this way. Play quietly and there is less reverb (and less guitar). Play loud and there is more reverb. Of course you set the reverb level to what sounds "good" when you play at a nominal level.
 
I don't understand what you said Chris. It depends on how you set the input and output, diffusion, early reflections, pre delay, etc.
 
What? The only way reverb would get relatively louder when you drop an amp block level would be if the reverb is getting its input from something else than the amp you just lowered. Sort of like if you had the reverb fed from a pre-fader output in a mixer.
 
henryrobinett said:
I don't know what a preset or a screen shot of a grid is going to show. What am I missing here? If you lower the amp level, there's going to be more reverb or delay if those follow the amp. Basic mixing. Even if the amp level doesn't feed into the following blocks, but especially if it does. So if the ratios are all good, the levels between effects, why WOULDN'T lowering the amp level effect the balance?
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AH! I finally get what you're saying! Man, I had to rack my brain over this one.

You're thinking of the blocks like you would be thinking of seperate channels on a mixer, correct? Push one up, everything else gets relatively lower; pull something down to make it sink/hide in the mix, right?

That's not what's going on in the AFX. You need to think of it like you would an actual string of pedals and such.
 
henryrobinett said:
I don't understand what you said Chris. It depends on how you set the input and output, diffusion, early reflections, pre delay, etc.
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do you have a simple amp with reverb around?

set a clean tone and set a volume that's good for the room when you play guitar at a medium intensity.

now set the reverb amount to something where you can hear it well while playing at that medium intensity.

if you play harder than medium intensity, the reverb will be louder.

if you play less hard than medium intensity, the reverb will be less loud.

the reverb level won't be the same level whether you play hard or soft; it's volume will change with how hard you play. this is the same concept if you turn your amp level parameter down - the reverb won't be "stuck" at the same loudness.

as i said before, reverb is a sort of "echo" of the input signal - if the input signal is quiet, the reverb will be quiet. if the input signal gets loud, the reverb will be louder.

that's how it works with mixers and rack fx too - either serial or aux-mixed. if i set my reverb so it sounds good when i sing at a normal volume, if i start whispering, the reverb won't suddenly be way too loud.


and now that i think about it.... that's exactly how a ROOM works too. if i speak quietly, there isn't reverberation. but if i start yelling, my voice starts to reverberate in the room and i hear "reverb." just like the axe-fx signal chain - turning the level down in one block also reduces the volume respectively in other blocks - there are exceptions, but for reverb and delay, this is how it works. just like a real room and any other reverb/delay units.

i'm concerned that when you lower the Level parameter in the amp block, you say your preset immediately becomes "too wet." can you show us an audio example of this? or can you post a preset or screen shot so we can see how things are routed?
 
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Mark's Tone said:
the Baron brings it home..
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i'm not trying to be "correct" or "more correct" than anyone, just to be clear. this shouldn't be an opinion thing. it's how stuff works.

if he truly is lowering his Amp Level parameter only, and suddenly the preset is too wet, something is wrong with the routing of the preset. i'd like to hear an example of it so we can make sure everything is functioning correctly.
 
Once I build my essential set of UltraRes presets ... leveling is going to be the next mountain to conquer.

I'll have a volume expression pedal before the delay and reverb blocks (of course) to cover the overall output volume (I use guitar volume pot for tone shaping), but I am really concerned that I'll be all over the place with my intra-preset levels as I am switching effects like Ring Mod, Drive, Phaser, Chorus, etc. on and off. Just not sure what are the best leveling practices with the AXE ... yet! ;)

EDIT: Chris - can you expand your discussion (above) on reverb and playing intensity's impact on level transients to cover these other effects? :)
 
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