Q: how to create patches for unfamiliar backline? (F. Twin)

Sebastian

Sebastian

Power User
Hi all,

I need the experience of those who play their Axe straight into an amp.
Here's my situation:

I'm gonna have to create a few patches for a gig, playing The Doors songs. So nothing overly special, just wah, fuzz, tremolo, maybe overdrive.
Problem is: I've always used my Ultra with FRFR amplification, never into an amp. But for this gig I know I will have to use a Fender Twin (no loop/power amp in).
What's the best approach for creating patches beforehand?

1. patches with effects, with amp and cab, tweaked through my near fields. Then at the gig disable the cab sim and dial the backline twin to be as neutral as possible (bass and treble all the way down, mids all up, IIRC what Jay said).

2. like above but also disabling the amp block for the gig. This way I'd tweak all virtual stompboxes to sound good with the amp and cab blocks, so they should sound ok with the real Twin, too. I know a lot of Axe-Fx users use their units like a virtual pedal board into a tube amp with success.

3. other options?

Another question: what output settings would give me unity gain? So that a patch with just bypassed blocks would feed the amp just like: guitar->cable->amp input

Sebastian
 
Will the Twin be mic'ed and sound sent to FOH or will it be providing all your guitar amplification?
 
The Twin will provide all amplification, i.e. personal monitoring and for the audience. It's a small gig with P.A. just for vocals and keyboard.
If there'd be a FOH system, I'd gladly go direct, like I'm used to. And wouldn't have to worry as much how my patches will sound like.
 
What's to stop you from bringing along your FRFR monitor, set it up right beside the Twin, and pretend? I'm not kidding... all my patches are also set up for FRFR and direct to FOH, and I would not know where to begin if I suddenly had to turn my Ultra into an "effects only" front end processor. I would bring my FRFR and set it up (sitting on top of the twin if I had to).
 
I have to travel by train. I won't even take a guitar with me, let alone a 18 kg monitor wedge.
Just the Axe in a 2U rack bag, my LG 2 footcontroller and some cables.

I'm going direct to P.A. and use my monitor whenever I can, but this time I can't.
 
What I'd probably do is to use the Axe as if it's a pre-Twin pedal board, using mostly the Axe's quasi stomp-box Blocks, i.e. probably no Axe Amp Block stuff and probably no time-based stuff like reverb.

I'd haver a Layout something like this:

Wah > Compressor > Drive/Fuzz > Tremolo > Etc. > Output

I don't recall Robby Krieger ever using much in the way of delay pedals or tape echo, but if you want that you can use a Delay Block too, like a stomp box.

Now, you may want to try an Amp Block, in addition to the Drive Block just before the Output in order to mimic the power tube overdrive that always seemed to be present to my ears in Robby Krieger's tones. I.e. His cleans were always a little bit dirty, like he was driving his amps fairly hard. You probably won't be able to replicate that type of thing just plugging into the front of a Twin, unless you're playing real loud. And using the Drive Block to accomplish this might not be ideal although some of the Drive Types should be able to get you real close. But using an amp block as if it's a stomp-box overdrive pedal hads the potential to get you even closer, I think.

The other thing you'll have to contend with is matching the Axe's Output so that its level and impedance are similar to the level and impedance of your guitar. I think the Axe's Out 1 outputs are line level and this generally speaking won't be suitable.

But the Axe's Out 2 outputs are designed to send a signal to an external preamp, so they might be better suited towards this application.
[I'm not sure about this because I haven't used my Axe in this way very often. I've seen some folks on the board complain of noise issues when trying to do similar things though.]

This means, I believe, that in order to use the Out 2 jack to send your signal to the Twin, you'll need to have an FXL Block as your last Block in the Layout. You can use the FXL Block's Level controls, in tandem with the Out 2 volume knob, to level match your Axe's output with all effects bypassed to the output of your unadorned guitar by carefully A/B'ing between them.

I hope that makes sense and is helpful.
Good luck.
 
Backline, unfortunately, is just something you have to live with sometimes. Here's what I do, and would recommend: move your cab sim to the end of the chain, slap the FX Loop block just in front of the cab block, which will send the signal to Output 2. Send the mixing board a direct signal out of Output 1 like you have been, and send the signal from Output 2 (which is without any cab sim) to whatever the backline is. It will, of course, sound quite different than what you're used to, but as long as the sound board is getting a good signal, and as long as you can hear yourself out clearly to play the show, it's good enough for rock and roll. :)

Keep in mind that you'll also have Global EQ for Output 2 to work with, but if you want to get a bit fancier, you can split the signal before the cab sim first, slap a PEQ or GEQ on the patch, and then add the FX Loop for more control. Finally, worst comes to worst, you can always just go 100% direct and tell the sound engineer to put the guitar back through the floor monitors.

EDIT: I read your follow up post re: having no FOH after I posted. In which case, I'd have to agree that using the Axe as a pedalboard might be your best option, unless the backline has a loop (which, as I read, it doesn't). Replace the amp block with the drive block, kill the cab block, and proceed as usual.
 
joegold said:
What I'd probably do is to use the Axe as if it's a pre-Twin pedal board, using mostly the Axe's quasi stomp-box Blocks, i.e. probably no Axe Amp Block stuff and probably no time-based stuff like reverb.
Click to expand...

Yes, that's what I'll do most likely. Two years ago I basically played the same gig (same band, same Twin, same songs) but at that time I used my Rocktron Prophesy (waiting for my Ultra since 8 months, two more ahead) straight into the amp (= only possible option) and the result was so-so.

[...] Robby Krieger's tones [...]
Click to expand...

The tones per se are not the problem, I've been playing in a Doors tribute band for almost 7 years now, but thanks for the hints.
The tones don't have to be spot on, it's more a fun gig, not that seriously.
The problem just is: how do dial in decent tones on near fields, that will most likely translate when I've to use a Twin for backline.

Some good thoughts by you on level matching; I guess I'll just have to try out and do my best during soundcheck :lol:

@ mikeyen: yeah, no FOH there - makes it difficult, because it's something I've never encountered with my own bands. Otherwise I'd agree with you, as long as I know what is sent to the mixing desk sounds like intended, and I'm able to play right, it'd be fine.
Like I wrote above, the quest is: dial tones for an amplification you don't know (and can only guess at best).
 
Sebastian said:
The problem just is: how do dial in decent tones on near fields, that will most likely translate when I've to use a Twin for backline.
Click to expand...

Well the best prep would be to get a hold of a Twin and do your programming with it. They're pretty easy to rent, around here anyways.

But... If you work with the Double Verb Amp Type set to a very clean sound (Drive around 9:00, Master around 5:00) along with the 2 X 12 Blackface Cab sim, and set up the other "stomps" in your layout to achieve the types of tones you need for the gig, then when you run that into a real Twin (after adjusting for proper levels, etc.... without the Double Verb and 2 X 12 blocks of course) it shouldn't sound all that different from the way it sounds on your near-fields.
It *will* be different. Just not all that different.

Good luck.
 
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