Problems monitoring Axe II through Duet or Quartet-loss of tone and detail

DFauvre

Inspired
The phones out of the Fractal Axe Fx II sounds awesome. Detailed, lot's of highs. There is a significant loss of detail and high end when I am monitoring with headphones through an Apogee Quartet or Duet. I have tried every output option on the Axe II. They all have this problem. 1. Is this a Axe II problem? (I don't think it is as the Mackie HR 824s sound fine to me). 2. Is it an Apogee headphone amp problem? DAC problem? The Axe II through the Axe II phones is 3D, rich stereo, great detail and as I said great highs. Through the Apogee using Logic Pro X, there is definitely a loss of tone quality. It's muddier, detail is lost, etc. This is NOT a volume difference fooling my ears between the Axe Fx and the Apogee products. I thought both the Duet and Quartet were supposedly world class converters. So I am very confused and have spent two hours trying every possible configuration to figure this out. Suggestions? Does anyone else notice this? What would cause this? I am using short Mogami XLR cables from the Axe II to the the Quartet. I should be experiencing any noticeable change in tone.
 
I record through the pres on my Duet from time to time. It's slightly darker through them than direct, but only ever so very slightly different.

I run the Output 1 XLR outputs to the XLR ins on the Duet and...I'm going from memory here...I think I had them set to +4dBu.
 
-10 is what I am using. Anyway, I have the same problem with USB. The Quartet headphone out sounds little like the Fractal headphone out. My concern is if this is just the headphone out or if this is actually being recorded this way. The headphone out on the Axe II is stunningly detailed, punching, great sound stage, great highs, a lot of that goes away when you send the signal through Quartet and Logic. Wondering about other solutions. If this a Quartet issue? Hard to imagine but could be.
 
How have you got it connected?

I used to record my Axe-FX on my MacBook Pro via an Apogee Duet (1st Gen (USB)) with no problems or sound degradation at all. I used to plug the XLR connectors from the Duet straight into the back of the Axe-FX.

If you can give us a bit more detail about how you are connecting everything up, we may be able to help.
 
same as you it sounds like. XLRs out of the Axe II into the Quartet. Should I be recording in Logic at 44.1 or 48k? Could that be the issue? I am very sensitive to different DACs and the headphone out of the Quartet definitely has a loss of highs, punch, and detail compared to the phones out on the Axe II which sounds amazing. Is this a quality issue with the Quartet? I am mystified. It's subtle but I can hear it on multiple headphones.
 
I noticed same as you dfauvre. Same happens when you use meastro & duet alone, so no daw. Headphone out on axe sounds better. When i use itunes to play along, itunes sounds great. I also use xlr out and direct into breakout cable duet.

First i thought it might be the headphones (beyers dt770 80ohms). Seems axe can drive those very well, maybe duet cant whilst using xlr in? No clue at the moment. Settings in meastro are mic (no +4 or -10).

When i used my old little mackie mixer, and put xlr directly to that, and also duet line out to that (so no axe through pc), pan the xlr left rigth to taste is sounds really close to the axes headphone out... Is the mackie mixer driving the beyers better? Is it just the panning (cant do that with meastro mixer software)...

Hopefully someone has a solution ?
 
Hi Jacques, Thank God someone else finally posted about this. I lost an entire week in the studio trying to figure this out with endless emails to Apogee, Fractal, and VintageKings and ToneMerchants. Everyone has an opinion but no one has an answer. I finally sold the Duet and returned the recently purchased Quartet. I don't think it's problem driving the headphones. I hear the same tone and imaging loss with low end Sennheisers with the Duet or Quartet that are easy to drive. So it's not a problem of headphones. The next thing I was going to try was a more expensive I/O like an Apollo or Symphony. that said, it should take a $3000 I/O to match the head phone out of the Fractal. I am amazed that others do not comment on this. Further, the closest I have gotten to the same quality out of the Fractal phones is going from the USB of the Fractal into the iMac and out through an Audio Quest DragonFly USB DAC. Obviously I can't record this way. Can someone at Fractal help? They tell me that the best outputs are the XLRs NOT the digital outs due to clocking issues. HELP!!!
 
Yeah, same problem yes, but quite annoying. I have bad ears, and even i notice it. Dont think lots of people try this.

But; i am still wondering if it is panning (now you ruled headphones out). What might be is that duet handles both xlrs as two mono's, not one stereo. That at least should loose sound (or depth or what you would like to call it). I've planned a little test with the mixer (stereo in).

What i did yesterday is headphones to line in duet. Sound improves marginally. That got me figuring the panning or two mono's might be it. Then, if it works, logic should be able to handle this... I'll report later!
 
What happens if you record via the Duet, bounce it down, the play it back while monitoring via the AxeFx headphone out?

If you think it's still darker than when you record via the AceFx that means the problem is likely in the Duet pres or ADCs.

If you think it's brighter than what you thought you recorded that means the problem is likely in the Duet headphone amplifier.

I'm a Duet owner and I've noted a similar darkening of the sound when tracking via its analog ins versus the AxeFx's digital in. I have my suspicions about where the problem lies but I'd like to hear what you guys based in the above.
 
I don't the problem is related to panning. When I bring the audio into Logic X, it's coming in on a stereo track, not mono. The problem likely is the quality of DAC in the DUET and Quartet which sound exactly the same in this regard. Or it's their headphone amps. In any case, I wish someone could give me a definitive answer. It's hard ton comprehend that a $1400 Quartet loses sound quality, but it's possible. I don't understand why Fractal can't answer this and there have not been more posts about it.
 
this could simply be a monitoring problem. if the audio is passing straight through the duet and you have software monitoring on in logic, then you'll hear two signals at the same time separated by a small amount of latency.
 
this could simply be a monitoring problem. if the audio is passing straight through the duet and you have software monitoring on in logic, then you'll hear two signals at the same time separated by a small amount of latency.

It's not related to phasing from software and hardware monitoring being on at the same time. You can hear the difference with out invoking a DAW, just swapping headphones between the Duet and AxeFx while playing. At least I've always been able to.
 
It's not related to phasing from software and hardware monitoring being on at the same time. You can hear the difference with out invoking a DAW, just swapping headphones between the Duet and AxeFx while playing. At least I've always been able to.

ah ok, cool.

the duet is supposed to be a really good interface, isn't it? weird that you would be experiencing this kind of problem with it...
 
ah ok, cool.

the duet is supposed to be a really good interface, isn't it? weird that you would be experiencing this kind of problem with it...

It is a really good interface. And I actually still think it is. But interfaces are like wine -- they come in subtle (and some times not so subtle) flavours. The Apogee stuff has its own sound and you either like it or you don't. But it's a sound of its own nonetheless.
 
Its not panning indeed. I tested this: duet headphones vs axefx headphones vs mackie mixer headphones. No panning, no special things. No daw involved.. Duet sounds def little less than axe/mixer . The latter seem more spaceious, wider. Duet sounds more trebly / sharper. Axe headphone out sounds better, but the mixer headphone out is really close. I am not stating its a bad sound, but its def lesser than other two. Unfortenately i cannot compare the duet dac with something else (focusrite or so). When i connect duet to macbook and just listen to itunes it sounds good, better than just headphones out macbook. I would like to try rme babyface or so, just to hear if its any better...
 
I returned the Quartet, it sounds identical to the Duet. There is a significant loss of sound quality through either compared to the phones out. I am ordering a UA Apollo. Supposedly it has a better headphone out and better DACs...will see. If that doesn't work, I guess only option is Symphony. I can't if the problem is the headphone amps in the Apogee products or their DACs. Sure wish with all the Axe II users someone could help figure this out.
 
I am hearing this too with a Duet. So glad you posted this. I thought it was just me. I be curious to hear your results with the UA Apollo....
 
Hello all:
I seem to have this issue as well.
What I notice is a difference between monitoring with the Apogee Duet (i.e. record armed in ProTools) and the resulting playback from the recorded track.
I notice I have to add an EQ plugin with a high frequency shelf around 6.5kHz with the boost about 1.5dB in order so that the playback tonality in the upper frequencies matches the tone of my guitar just monitoring at the input of the Duet. Not sure if it's the ADC or DAC or both within the duet that result in this loss in the upper end. The monitor levels and playback levels are of course matched. I was thinking of upgrading to the quartet to get four channels, but now I might consider something different.
 
I am thinking it could also be the pre-amps themselves within the Duet, in addition to possibly the ADC and DAC.
Impedance loading can have an effect on tone ( just like changing input impedance on a pre will shape the tone of a mic ).
Input impedance on the Duet is 3k-Ohms. Seems fairly high enough though.
 
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