Preset layout for FRFR and amp+cab

Starfighter

Experienced
Hi guys (and gals)!

I've run strictly FRFR for a while, but have ordered a power amp (GT1000FX) and a couple of NL212s from Matrix - to hopefully add some "amp in room" and punch to my setup here at home. My question is how to rearrange my presets for an FRFR AND amp+cab setup. More specific; how to place and route the delays and reverbs. I have a lot of U2-presets (based on Michael's FW10-presets), and the delays and reverbs are almost always placed after the cab block in the signal chain. Meaning; that if I insert an FX Loop (for output 2 to the Matrix amp+cabs) before the cab block, this signal will be dry - no delays and reverbs. That's not my plan, I am not going for a W/D/W-setup.

I've searched the forum quite a bit, and seems that the consensus is that the placement of delays and reverbs in relation to the cab block is irrelevant; it will sound the same whether you put them before or after the cab. Cliff is quoted:

"It actually doesn't matter for most effects. It the effects are linear, time-invariant (LTI), then the order is irrelevant. If you don't use the cabinet drive then it's LTI. Reverb is LTI. Delay is LTI. Now if you use modulation technically it's not LTI but it is "wide-sense stationary" so you can treat it as LTI. The only blocks that aren't LTI are the stuff that does pitch shifting (time-variant) or distortion (nonlinear)."

And from the Wiki:

"You can place the effects loop anywhere in the chain (just add the fx loop block). Unless you are running a stereo cab or 2 mono cabs panned hard L/R, you may want to place stereo effects after the cab. The cab is a linear time invariant effect (unless you add drive) so effects like delay and reverb will sound the same before or after it. As Cliff and others have stated on numerous occasions LTI effects can be placed before and after each other and they will sound the same. Only when placed before or after non-LTI effects (drive, amps, et. al) it really matters. The one caveat there is that some effects are mono, placing effects before and after that makes a difference."

So - according to this, it would be all right to move the delays and reverbs BEFORE the cab block - so they are a part of the signal chain running into the FX LOOP, like this:

"Before"-picture (FRFR only):

before_zpsesyrawp9.jpg


"After"-picture (FRFR+pwr amp/cab):

FXloop_zpswhsntb9n.jpg


Would this work? According to the info I have gathered on the forum - it will. But - what to do with more complex presets? Like this?

found_zpssfa1dngz.jpg


Or this?

fly_zpsmzjghtva.jpg


Does anyone have any experience with or thoughts on the subject that they would like to share? I have not received my amp and cabs yet, just trying to mentally prepare for the adjustments I have to make.

Cheers
 
Yes, put everything before the Cab. Works fine.

Put FXL in-line just before the Cab, or split the signal to FXL on another row.
 
Thanks for chiming in, Yek! So, for the two last presets I presented... move the cabs to the end of the grid (merging/splitting signal paths as required to acheive this) - and insert an FXL in parallell just before the cab(s)? That won't change the tone/effects in any significant way?
 
Has to be a stereo Cab to keep the stereo spectrum.

Don't know why you have an Enhancer in parallel.

I guess you just have to try and experiment.
 
Thanks Chris, good read! Your article confirmed my understanding of the basics of using the FXL for routing the output 2 signal to an external amp+cab. So I think I know how to create a preset from scratch for this purpose - the challenge is adapting existing presets, like "The Fly"-preset i posted above. So, I would do something like this:

Before editing, FRFR only:

beforeFly_zpsrs5cqcfd.jpg


After editing amp+cab & FRFR:

afterFly_zpsfh35rq4y.jpg


Playing both versions, I imagine that I hear subtle differences - but I can't really identify what they are. Might have something to do with the routing in the mixers maybe? In the first mixer block the mix between gain 2 and 3 is controlled by Extern 1 (pedal). In the second block, gain 2, 3 and 4 are all 100%.
 
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Has to be a stereo Cab to keep the stereo spectrum.

Don't know why you have an Enhancer in parallel.

I guess you just have to try and experiment.

I guess you are right :)

Thanks for helping out guys, much appreciated! Axe Masters, you are indeed! According to UPS, my amp and cabs will arrive tomorrow so I look forward to experimenting!
 
Why the 2nd mixer block? This seems unnecessarily complex.

Curious why the wah in parallel? Is that so you hear a non-wah version along with wah'd?

FX Loop setup looks good though. As yek said, perhaps you could use a Stereo Cab block instead of the 2 separate ones too. You really shouldn't hear any differences with the cab blocks before or after all those effects.
 
Curious why the wah in parallel? Is that so you hear a non-wah version along with wah'd?
Yes. I used that technique quite a lot aswell. It allows for a more "singing" tone with a lot less pronounced wah effect. It's a workaround for the wah block not having a "mix" parameter.
 
The preset was not made by me, I will attach it so maybe it makes some more sense :) I am not sure why the second mixer block is there, as faders 2-4 are at 100% and not setup with any modifiers. Should be ok to delete it, I suppose.

View attachment U2 The Fly.syx
 
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