Preset charging creators

[Rex]

Each of the people here who are offering presets for sale has a history of contributing to the community and providing help (and presets) for free. If they want to make a buck or two after donating hundreds or thousands of hours of their time and hard work, I don't have a problem with that.

 

[lqdsnddist]

Im all for folks making money for time put into developing a quality product. I've certainly donated to folks like Simeon even when they weren't "paid" presets.

That said, I honesty find the whole preset business a bit weird... It's like we want to turn music into this instant gratification, press a button, type of thing.

Guys used to set up their pedalboard with carefully selected pedals, choose their own order of effects, dial in each of those pedals, and then set their amps, again gear of their own choosing, to sound good with those pedals, their guitar etc

That was part of being a guitarist, and one of the fun parts at that

No one used to ask for someone else to set up all their given pedals, how to set their amp etc.

You played, turned a knob, and played some more. Repeat as needed

Now it seems we are losing that experience, that individually to our music.

Now it's pay $20, get a tone that someone else thinks sounds good, and that everyone else buying that preset will have as well.

Guys can go buy an Axe, buy some presets, and have some decent tones, but have zero idea how anything works.

That just seems like a shame to me

 

[Rotti]

It's a free market. Consumers are free to "not consume" if they so choose. Plus, the cat is out of the bag. How would you suggest policing them now? They could even argue a factor in their decision to buy an AxeFx was to generate profits through preset sales... not a great argument, but valid. And where would the line be drawn? Are aftermarket IRs also up for debate now? Making them can be a costly and time consuming endeavor.

I don't buy presets because I think I can make a better sound with my gear and playing style on my own... I think the one time I paid was when Yek or someone was looking for donations for his wife's charitable work. But for the guy who's new to the AxeFx and doesn't find the factory presets useful, who am I to tell him what he can/can't spend his money on?

Side note, ask yourself what the alternative is. I mean, am I willing to buy studio time to have an engineer dial in tones for me? Maybe, maybe not, but wouldn't it be far cheaper to buy a preset that gets me in the ballpark before I walk into the studio?

 

[iaresee]

Another thing to consider is if you buy something & it doesn't perform as advertised you should be able to get a refund.

Mmm. Gonna disagree here. Not all purchases can be reversed. For digital assets, because once given you can't actually get them back, a refund makes little sense and can be abused. That's why Apple greatly limits refunds on the App Store, for example.

I also like knowing that underwear can't be returned for a refund.

 

[Severed]

I don't support it, same as I didn't support "how to videos," uploaded to sites full of traffic ads for revenue.

IMHO it's people leeching off someone else's successful product.

I would support these only if it came directly from Fractal Audio.

 

[maxdown]

My opinion is that asking for a donation is a better model to work from ..... the majority of people generally will donate if the product is worthy

By making them 'donate ware' the seller can easily justify a disclaimer that their presets are supplied 'as is' and work well with their particular guitars and monitoring but it's the responsibility of the end-user to tweak things for use with their equipment and future FW updates.

It's quite rare that a preset that someone else created for themselves works straight out of the box for someone else so there's scope for the seller to offer one on one follow up paid consultations which is where they can bridge the gap between a donation and the cost they feel the preset is worth.

I feel that charging a flat fee for a preset does open up the possibility of making the seller responsible to ensuring the preset works as expected for the end-user ..... which could end up a right mess given we all use different guitars and different monitoring. As a 'buyer' you kind of expect follow up service but as a 'donater' you assume the risk.

 

[chris]

My opinion is that asking for a donation is a better model to work from ..... the majority of people generally will donate if the product is worthy

This is just not true, sorry. Typically the community thinks "well, I'm sure someone else will donate." I think certain things we've seen offered here should have been for sale, rather than donation.

Donation products seem like they have less value than something that has a definite price. The "less value" notion makes it seem not worth paying for. And the creators usually lose out on a lot of support.

 

[5150]

I've bought presets before, not necessarily because I wanted a specific tone, but because I was trying to learn more about tweaking certain things. It's interesting to see how other folks approach things. I paid because I saw value in learning, not because I got a certain sound.

If you charge for preset and people buy them, then do it. But once they are released into the wild, you don't have any control over them, and I'm not sure anyone is entitled to a level of control. After all, these are just settings. Do I have way to keep you from setting the knobs on your Marshall head the same way I do? Nope.

I think we can all agree that straight-up reselling someone else's preset is a douch-y thing to do. Hopefully the community can regulate itself in that regard by bringing attention to said douches.

There's maybe a bit of gray area regarding intellectual property here. I don't know, perhaps this is covered by some already existing law?

 

[5150]

This is just not true, sorry. Typically the community thinks "well, I'm sure someone else will donate." I think certain things we've seen offered here should have been for sale, rather than donation.

Donation products seem like they have less value than something that has a definite price. The "less value" notion makes it seem not worth paying for.

I have donated plenty of times to those folks who ask for them, and many other people have too. Your opinion may differ, but in the end there's no "truth" there -- only an opinion that differs.

 

[groovenut]

This is just not true, sorry. Typically the community thinks "well, I'm sure someone else will donate." I think certain things we've seen offered here should have been for sale, rather than donation.

Donation products seem like they have less value than something that has a definite price. The "less value" notion makes it seem not worth paying for.

Exactly why in my previous post I stated "I used the donations model and it worked well for a bit." and why I chose to go to a flat rate model based on time.

 

[wcfieldskx]

I don't support it, same as I didn't support "how to videos," uploaded to sites full of traffic ads for revenue.

IMHO it's people leeching off someone else's successful product.

I would support these only if it came directly from Fractal Audio.

It would make sense if Fractal put out there own "how to" types of videos. I agree there and think that would be a good idea.

 

[chris]

I have donated plenty of times to those folks who ask for them, and many other people have too. Your opinion may differ, but in the end there's no "truth" there -- only an opinion that differs.

It's much appreciated, thank you for your generosity. But I think any creator will share that "a majority" does not donate for sure. It has nothing to do with the people themselves or how generous anyone is or isn't. It's simply the model - donation products just don't bring in as much support as those with a definite price. If you can get it for free, majority will do exactly that.

Basing this on fact, not opinion. The creators know factually if majority are donating. With my discussions with several creators, majority do not donate. Heck I've even had customers say "if that were for sale [rather than donation] i'd buy it for sure." It's strange, yet it makes sense.

 

[Coldsummer]

I think the fact that the end-product happens to be a preset is largely irrelevant, it's simply a question of people seeking to be compensated for their time and expertise which is something most of us do if we work for a living and the principle is exactly the same. It would be hypocritical to object to anyone being rewarded for their time and effort if that's what they desire. Ultimately the market will dictate whether it is acceptable or not.

So I have no problem whatsoever with people charging for their presets, although I do think prices have been creeping up recently and market forces will undoubtedly force a slow down before it gets out of hand.

 

[5150]

It's much appreciated, thank you for your generosity. But I think any creator will share that "a majority" does not donate for sure. It has nothing to do with the people themselves or how generous anyone is or isn't. It's simply the model - donation products just don't bring in as much support as those with a definite price. If you can get it for free, majority will do exactly that.

Basing this on fact, not opinion. The creators know factually if majority are donating. With my discussions with several creators, majority do not donate. Heck I've even had customers say "if that were for sale [rather than donation] i'd buy it for sure." It's strange, yet it makes sense.

I have no doubt that there are people who do not donate. I was more commenting on whether the fee vs donation model is somehow right or wrong. I suggest that it is neither, and their use is up to the person running the business.

 

[Danny Danzi]

Great thread! I hope it stays civil.

I'll try to be brief....though unusually fail. I think donations stink as they allow you to use something for free which sometimes makes you forget. I feel I owe Al a fortune for the times I've used fractool.

I've been meaning to send him money for months. I am a man of my word and will do so. But I haven't yet and that tool to me, is a necessity. Publicly Al, I am sorry and will send something whether I get money in my PayPal or not.

But there is a prime example where donation failed...and so did I by not allowing Al to be more important than he really is.

That said, if someone used my presets and tweaked...please state what you used of mine and send me a few bucks if you're a good dude.

After reading this thread and one I started, I've decided I'm not going to sell preset packs. As simply stated by the majority, they don't work for people. We got lucky with my vh patch working for some of you.

They said, I will be creating custom presets using your gear, your signal feed and whatever samples you can get me IF you need that sort of thing. I have an inbox full of guys interested in this and I have the tools to make it as accurate as it can be.

This is why presets fail...they are made using gear that isn't yours. You let me do it if you want this stuff, and I promise you the most accurate preset you have ever had

Any packs I make, I'll probably give away or give the chance to donate even though I don't believe in the donate method because it fails.

I believe people should have the chance to sell anything they can deliver the goods on. If I can be honest with you on something?

I would have paid $100 or more to have my vh preset that I use live. Sounds preposterous to most of you....but for me, it would have cut 3 years off of my search to nail the tone. You guys seriously don't know how hard I worked on that.

I tone matched, I used my own tone match software that allows me even more power, and I must have listened to and played vh riffs over 10,000 times. You better believe I'd pay for something like that. I'm in a vh tribute band so this is a necessity for me.

It's certainly not for everyone, but it's nice to have a service available that will cater to people that really want their tones close.

If any of you fit that bill, contact me and we'll work something out. This way you get exactly what you want/need. Don't need it....too pricey, too involved....no problem. It exists for those that have that need and I think it's great that it's a possibility.....no.matter who the seller is.

 

[levipeto]

@Danny Danzi

I have been waiting for your donation button from the beginning! At least give me an email address, so I can donate

 

[levipeto]

I think a VH preset is a perfect example.
I also have several years (so do others) in studying VH tones and tone-match isolated tracks etc.

To me, if a charging creator uses any other amp than a plexi based amp, then it's a lie. I don't really care if JCM-800 or the Mesa sounds closer. It's a lie. It's a lie to the people who bought the preset so they can study the VH sound.
Same goes to the reverb settings, etc.

Why?
Because you have Axe-Fx.
20 yeas ago you wanted to get in the ballpark with the pod and digitech processors then the approach above would have been acceptable and if you had to use their mesa amp simulation, then that's what you used.
... but the Axe-Fx changed that. You can actually use a "real" plexi for VH and you kind of have to to be authentic.

If it's a free preset and it's only about getting closer, but not being authentic neccesary, then it's ok to use anything. But if you charge for a "VH" preset, then it's better be accurate. (especially $10-100+).

For someone who just bought the Axe-Fx has no clue about what's going on, sure they would not notice or care about the amp block or the reverb, but many do!

Edit: This only how I feel and I am pretty sure many people feel different.

 

[maxdown]

This is just not true, sorry. Typically the community thinks "well, I'm sure someone else will donate." I think certain things we've seen offered here should have been for sale, rather than donation.

Donation products seem like they have less value than something that has a definite price. The "less value" notion makes it seem not worth paying for. And the creators usually lose out on a lot of support.

My point being publicly available presets typically are less value because they were created by someone else for their particular setup and have no guarantee of performing as per their demo videos/sound bites when an end-user gets them due to ancillary equipment being different - so the typical consumer reaction is wanting to come back at the original creator and say 'You need to help me fix this ... I paid money for it'. If the creator refuses then the negative PR will lose them support too.

I think the issue of 'ongoing support' statement needs to be made loud and clear before selling presets to allow both the seller and buyer peace of mind

Your products Chris are instructional videos .... they fit perfectly into the 'definite price' category ..... and also are a platform for further one on one consultation leads I expect ..... but I feel presets are a slightly different beast.

As others have pointed out in previous posts, the current preset sellers are long standing community members who have worked hard and given freely in the past. Their reputation and free samples have been road tested in the process ..... so it's natural to think their stuff is going to be fine (and I'm sure 90% of the time it will be).

But once they switch to going fully commercial it's a balancing act between community reputation and customer relations. Some buyers will just keep quiet if the presets don't quite cut it for them in the name of supporting community relations (IE they don't want to offend) while others will sound off like their homes were at risk.

As a quick aside .... the sad thing is the preset/informational service sellers become less of community members and more promoters of their products/services ..... but I guess that's just nostalgia ..... life goes on ... people gotta eat ... it's a free market blah blah.

It's a subject that could be waffled about forever ..... but the real crux of the matter is:

1. If someone doesn't want to pay for fixed price presets they won't (duh I know ... well it had to be said I guess)

2. If they do pay for them they are entitled to do whatever they like with them and there's pretty much nothing the seller can do about it ... because in reality the presets are supplied as only partially complete until the end-user tweaks them in.

3. The presets are composed using FAS copyrighted hardware and software - and that's where any worthwhile defensible legal copyright ends.

Morally of course, (and I personally still like to think most of us have morality/community spirit regardless of your opinions re. donations) the decent thing is to support the creator's 'time spent' by not doing anything unethical like re-sharing their products .... but their presets are almost certain to be re-used in some large or small part in other user made presets and that's where the lines become blurred.

That's enough on the whole thing from me now ..... we can all go to the pub and get the whiskeys going and discuss it in the good-natured manner it deserves I reckon .... the community spirit is still here ... it just has evolved a little in places.

Out!

 

[Rex]

To me, if a charging creator uses any other amp than a plexi based amp, then it's a lie. I don't really care if JCM-800 or the Mesa sounds closer. It's a lie. It's a lie to the people who bought the preset so they can study the VH sound.
Same goes to the reverb settings, etc.

If it's a VH preset, and it sounds like VH, then it's truth. Truth worthy of study, if you're so inclined. It does what it's billed to do.

That's as far as I'm going with this, because sometimes it feels like you're just paddling in the pond to stir up the minnows.

 

[levipeto]

If it's a VH preset, and it sounds like VH, then it's truth. Truth worthy of study, if you're so inclined. It does what it's billed to do.

I understand, but there are different levels of "sounds like VH".
If you add a phaser to the front of the amp and a huge reverb to the end of the chain and play some VH, then 99% of the people in the bar would be amazed how accurate your tone is. You can send me the $10 now

I am really not trying to stir anything. These are details and seem minor ... until we charge $10-100 per preset.

The expectation raises with the price.