Presenting... The Axe-Fx III

Hey, unix-guy & GreatGreen:

unix-guy said:
Any time you change Amp block X/Y state, even for an amp that is bypassed, there is a gap in the audio. If you truly need 4 amps in a preset, there are going to be cases where there is a gap... Because you have to change X/Y to get to all of them.
Click to expand...

There is a way to have 4 amps at once, and cross-fade between them using Scene changes. In fact, you can set the cross-fade time to 500ms, or even longer. (I prefer 500ms.)

Here's how: You have to have 2 Axe-FX II units.

That, basically, is my rig: I didn't know the Axe-FX III would arrive so soon. So I bought a second Axe-FX II and wired it up with my first Axe-FX II which I'd had for years.

In every program I have 4 amps (not using X/Y): 2 are in Axe #1, and the others are in Axe #2. I blend the Clean and Gritty amp sounds in #1, and send the blended sound out the Left Side of the effects loop (I send an unprocessed sound out the Right side).

Then I bring the Left and Right of that same effects loop into Inputs 1 & 2 on Axe #2. I send the unprocessed (Right) side into my Crunch and Lead amp sounds, then blend THEM. Then I take the two BLENDS (the Clean/Gritty blend and the Crunch/Lead blend), and I blend THOSE to make the final tone.

The level of each amp is continuously controlled using the Scenes Controllers.

And, level of each amp has a Damping of 500ms.

So, when I change scenes (say, from Clean to Lead), the old amp fades out WHILE the new amp is fading in.

It works.

But it's complicated and I can't backup a program to my PC easily, because I'd have to back it up from BOTH Axe-FX II units.

So it's a pain. That's why I'll ultimately change to the III.

(But it goes to show you how far some folks will go for seamlessness.)
 
Dr. Dipwad said:
Hey, unix-guy & GreatGreen:



There is a way to have 4 amps at once, and cross-fade between them using Scene changes. In fact, you can set the cross-fade time to 500ms, or even longer. (I prefer 500ms.)

Here's how: You have to have 2 Axe-FX II units.

That, basically, is my rig: I didn't know the Axe-FX III would arrive so soon. So I bought a second Axe-FX II and wired it up with my first Axe-FX II which I'd had for years.

In every program I have 4 amps (not using X/Y): 2 are in Axe #1, and the others are in Axe #2. I blend the Clean and Gritty amp sounds in #1, and send the blended sound out the Left Side of the effects loop (I send an unprocessed sound out the Right side).

Then I bring the Left and Right of that same effects loop into Inputs 1 & 2 on Axe #2. I send the unprocessed (Right) side into my Crunch and Lead amp sounds, then blend THEM. Then I take the two BLENDS (the Clean/Gritty blend and the Crunch/Lead blend), and I blend THOSE to make the final tone.

The level of each amp is continuously controlled using the Scenes Controllers.

And, level of each amp has a Damping of 500ms.

So, when I change scenes (say, from Clean to Lead), the old amp fades out WHILE the new amp is fading in.

It works.

But it's complicated and I can't backup a program to my PC easily, because I'd have to back it up from BOTH Axe-FX II units.

So it's a pain. That's why I'll ultimately change to the III.

(But it goes to show you how far some folks will go for seamlessness.)
Click to expand...
If I had two, I could make it work without a fade... But I'll happily take the Axe Fx III!
 
vangrieg:

vangrieg said:
Cross-fades sound cool though.
Click to expand...

Dude, they really are.

Seriously, I can just change sound in the middle of a note and it kind of morphs to the new sound.

I have always thought (and several times advocated on these forums) that cross-fading between sounds rather than abruptly changing timbre is obviously the most-musical solution in 90% of cases.

If it weren't, studio recordings wouldn't have invented the "fade-out" at the ends of songs. DJs wouldn't fade in the next song as the last one is ending. Recording engineers wouldn't have "fader scenes" and "fader automation" on their consoles, where they just hit a button, and the automated faders move to a new set of positions. The fact that all these things exist demonstrates that humans, ahem, like it smooth. (At least in the audio realm.)

Now Cliff and Co. are the innovators, the technological bleeding edge in achieving guitarists' dreams of maximized quality and capability.

So it always made sense to me that their next product should support crossfading channels on every "block." That way, you associate Channel A on the block with Scene 1, Channel B with Scene 2, and a Damping Time with the Scene Controller.

When you're on Scene 1 playing rhythm and the time for the solo comes, you stomp the footswitch Scene 2. But you don't stomp it on the first note of the solo. Instead, you stomp it on Beat 4 of the last measure of the previous section, and you start sliding your hand up in a glissando towards the first note of the solo.

As you're sliding, the rhythm sound is fading out and the solo sound is fading in. By the time you hit the first note of the solo, the solo sound is at 100% and the rhythm sound is at 0%. It's a totally smooth transition; it sounds like having 2 guitar tracks crossfaded in the studio.

(So, obviously I like it a lot.)
 
Crossfading would require 2 copies of the fully processed signal. That’s why you can do it with 2 Axe-Fx units. It’s not something trivial to be done with a single unit.
 
chris said:
Crossfading would require 2 copies of the fully processed signal. That’s why you can do it with 2 Axe-Fx units. It’s not something trivial to be done with a single unit.
Click to expand...

With 2 amp blocks you can do it for two sounds. With 4... You get the idea.
 
Chris:

chris said:
Crossfading would require 2 copies of the fully processed signal. That’s why you can do it with 2 Axe-Fx units. It’s not something trivial to be done with a single unit.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I'd wondered about that.

It seems to me that the surplus processing power of the Axe III could handle it, for any given block, IF the user was willing to accept the cost of reduced block-inventory.

The Proposal:

Here's what I mean: Consider the Drive Block. The per-preset Inventory of Drive Blocks is 4, and each block has 4 Channels. Right?

So what I envision is a "Crossfading Channels: On/Off" option in Drive Block 1. The moment you set that option to "On," you find that one of your unused Drive Blocks "vanishes" from your inventory, and at the same moment a new parameter appears allowing you to set the "Crossfade Time: 0ms-1000ms."

So you could have two crossfading Drives, or one crossfading Drive and two other non-crossfading Drives, or four non-crossfading ones, in a single preset.

With Amps, obviously, you could only have 1 crossfading Amp Block. Likewise Cabs. (Because for those two block types, the per-preset inventory is only 2.)

The Likely Response:

The response I anticipate to this proposal is: "Well, you can always achieve what you're describing without any new software changes in the Axe-FX III. If you want crossfading Drives or Amps or Cabs or whatever, all you need to do is use 2 of the blocks of that type, set their volumes to be controlled by a External Controller or Scene Controller, set damping on both volumes to the desired crossfade-time, and you've got it."

My Response To The Response:

There are two problems with that response: First, what it suggests can be done, but it's more of a hassle to wire up. Whereas my proposed workflow for setting a single block to have "crossfading channels" sounds like it could be added to a preset in under ten seconds, trying to wire up two separate blocks to behave the same way by "jerry-rigging" it is more of a pain. You have to put the extra block in. You have to decide what CC# or Scene Controller you're gonna use. You have to set up the 0-100% on that Controller. You have to set the damping time. In both places. And so on. Oh, and don't forget that you can't have a smooth-sounding audio crossfade using a linear fader. (Ever try that? The center of the crossfade is radically quieter than either extreme, and it starts to sound like a "gap.") You'll have to manually set the curve of the decrease on Block 1 to start off slow and increase over time; meanwhile, the curve of the increase on Block 2 has to start off fast and then slow down over time. Believe me, I've tried it, and it takes an extra 2-3 minutes every time I have to do it. Bleahhh!

Second, it doesn't leverage the Axe-FX III's new "channels" feature. Let's say you want a Drive Block, with its 4 channels, which will move from channel-to-channel via crossfading. And you want to attach Channel A to Scene 1, Channel B to Scene 2, C to 3, and D to 4.

With my proposed "crossfading channels" option, that's easy.

But with the "Likely Response" suggestion, it's going to be tricky. First, you'll need to duplicate the channel settings between Drive Block 1 and Drive Block 2. Then you'll have to "choreograph" an elaborate dance of instant MIDI signals and delayed MIDI signals to make it work: When wanting to switch from Channel A to Channel B, you'll want to send 2 commands to each of BOTH blocks: a "begin ramping" command and a "channel change" command. BUT, you don't want both blocks to change channels immediately; you want Block 1 to stay on Channel A while Block 2 changes to Channel B, and then Block 1 begins ramping down volume while Block 2 begins ramping up. And then, as soon as you're done crossfading from Block 1/Channel A to Block 2/Channel B, now you need to send the delayed "change to Channel B" command to Block 1, and then crossfade back to Block 1.

What a mess! The hassle makes it unworkable, whereas my proposed feature would, I suspect, get tried out by a lot of folks, just because it's so simple to add to a preset.

Conclusion:

By putting an option to toggle on "crossfading channels" with a block (Drive, Amp, Cab, Delay, etc.; I can envision uses for nearly every kind of block where the inventory has more than 1), Fractal Audio could provide users with that more-musical-sounding capability that we hear in the crossfading done by DJs and studio recordings. And no other unit currently does this (other than using a Sound Sculpture Switchblade in an old-school rack, which I used to do).

I suspect many users would enjoy it, and some of us would use it in nearly every preset.

Thanks for your attention. :D
 
Dr. Dipwad said:
Chris:



Yeah, I'd wondered about that.

It seems to me that the surplus processing power of the Axe III could handle it, for any given block, IF the user was willing to accept the cost of reduced block-inventory.

The Proposal:

Here's what I mean: Consider the Drive Block. The per-preset Inventory of Drive Blocks is 4, and each block has 4 Channels. Right?

So what I envision is a "Crossfading Channels: On/Off" option in Drive Block 1. The moment you set that option to "On," you find that one of your unused Drive Blocks "vanishes" from your inventory, and at the same moment a new parameter appears allowing you to set the "Crossfade Time: 0ms-1000ms."

So you could have two crossfading Drives, or one crossfading Drive and two other non-crossfading Drives, or four non-crossfading ones, in a single preset.

With Amps, obviously, you could only have 1 crossfading Amp Block. Likewise Cabs. (Because for those two block types, the per-preset inventory is only 2.)

The Likely Response:

The response I anticipate to this proposal is: "Well, you can always achieve what you're describing without any new software changes in the Axe-FX III. If you want crossfading Drives or Amps or Cabs or whatever, all you need to do is use 2 of the blocks of that type, set their volumes to be controlled by a External Controller or Scene Controller, set damping on both volumes to the desired crossfade-time, and you've got it."

My Response To The Response:

There are two problems with that response: First, what it suggests can be done, but it's more of a hassle to wire up. Whereas my proposed workflow for setting a single block to have "crossfading channels" sounds like it could be added to a preset in under ten seconds, trying to wire up two separate blocks to behave the same way by "jerry-rigging" it is more of a pain. You have to put the extra block in. You have to decide what CC# or Scene Controller you're gonna use. You have to set up the 0-100% on that Controller. You have to set the damping time. In both places. And so on. Oh, and don't forget that you can't have a smooth-sounding audio crossfade using a linear fader. (Ever try that? The center of the crossfade is radically quieter than either extreme, and it starts to sound like a "gap.") You'll have to manually set the curve of the decrease on Block 1 to start off slow and increase over time; meanwhile, the curve of the increase on Block 2 has to start off fast and then slow down over time. Believe me, I've tried it, and it takes an extra 2-3 minutes every time I have to do it. Bleahhh!

Second, it doesn't leverage the Axe-FX III's new "channels" feature. Let's say you want a Drive Block, with its 4 channels, which will move from channel-to-channel via crossfading. And you want to attach Channel A to Scene 1, Channel B to Scene 2, C to 3, and D to 4.

With my proposed "crossfading channels" option, that's easy.

But with the "Likely Response" suggestion, it's going to be tricky. First, you'll need to duplicate the channel settings between Drive Block 1 and Drive Block 2. Then you'll have to "choreograph" an elaborate dance of instant MIDI signals and delayed MIDI signals to make it work: When wanting to switch from Channel A to Channel B, you'll want to send 2 commands to each of BOTH blocks: a "begin ramping" command and a "channel change" command. BUT, you don't want both blocks to change channels immediately; you want Block 1 to stay on Channel A while Block 2 changes to Channel B, and then Block 1 begins ramping down volume while Block 2 begins ramping up. And then, as soon as you're done crossfading from Block 1/Channel A to Block 2/Channel B, now you need to send the delayed "change to Channel B" command to Block 1, and then crossfade back to Block 1.

What a mess! The hassle makes it unworkable, whereas my proposed feature would, I suspect, get tried out by a lot of folks, just because it's so simple to add to a preset.

Conclusion:

By putting an option to toggle on "crossfading channels" with a block (Drive, Amp, Cab, Delay, etc.; I can envision uses for nearly every kind of block where the inventory has more than 1), Fractal Audio could provide users with that more-musical-sounding capability that we hear in the crossfading done by DJs and studio recordings. And no other unit currently does this (other than using a Sound Sculpture Switchblade in an old-school rack, which I used to do).

I suspect many users would enjoy it, and some of us would use it in nearly every preset.

Thanks for your attention. :D
Click to expand...
i appreciate the thought process :) many people wish for this and that, and while that's completely fine and expected, few put thought like this behind it. once you start the thought, it's quick to see that many easy ideas aren't so easy to implement.

also consider that without CPU dedicated to changing from hypothetical crossfade modes, regular switching is just that much faster as it doesn't need to check if this is in place or not.

i agree crossfades sound great, and many have done it with the Mixer block and 2 Amp blocks, for example. but having the option to manually set that up shows how powerful the platform is, while keeping it fast for those who don't want/need that functionality.
 
chris said:
having the option to manually set that up shows how powerful the platform is
Click to expand...

Yes, except we need more than two blocks. Or running more than one channel in a block.

According to how I understand what Cliff said, there would be a CPU cost to that, and lowered oversampling rate. Which is what we have in the II when running two amp blocks within a preset.
 
I think expectation management is the key here. If "early March" is the report, I'm won't let myself expect it a day earlier than technically March 15th.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom