Practical questions Helix to FM3

[Will Chen]

Thanks for the explanation.. I can see there would be a bit of tap dancing involved! This is probably the only area that I would be losing from the Helix. I don't tend to edit presets or use individual effects on the fly, I set out all of my presets with the various snap shots assigned to each of the 8 available foot switches and just use those, so it's easy to just hit whichever foot switch you want, no toggling involved, this is why I'm now starting to wonder if FM9 might be better for me.

My fear is, once I have my hands on an FM3 and love it, I'll be too limited with three foot switches, then invariably spend the same money again on an FC6, which is probably a bit silly at this point with the FM9 being available now

If the 3 switches for the Fm3 won't work for you, at least you tried the most flexible 3 button system there is.

In the default scene layout the 3 buttons correspond to scene 1-3 of your preset. To access 4-6 to long press the right switch and then the switches apply are assigned to 4-6. Long press the left switch and you're back to 1-3. I don't believe I've ever had a song which needed 8 distinct sounds in it, rarely more than 3 playing live. In the case that you'd need 4 at hand in the default layout you'd need 2 steps to access that 4th sound in the default scene layout.

That said...the layout is completely customizable. For example...if you're the type to create presets per song you can simply assign Switch 1 to increment through scenes and have each scene correspond to parts of the song, for example scene 1 clean, scene 2 crunch, scene 3 high gain, scene 4 crunch (copy of scene 2), scene 5 high gain (copy of scene3), scene 6 lead, and scene 6 high gain (copy of scene 3). This way there is no thinking involved, for the next part of the song you simply hit the same switch.

Or...set left switch to toggle between 2 scenes, middle switch as a lead boost which you can engage on either scene, and right can be for any mod effect/tap tempo/whatever. Or...switch 1 cycles Amp Channel A/B, switch 2 toggles volume boost and delay, switch 3 increments preset. Or....literally whatever.

It's a different way of thinking without question. All my life I've felt I needed more switches in order to handle performance needs. Once I tried the HX Stomp and Boss GT Core I saw how a 3 switch box could almost do everything I wanted, the FM3 completely shifted my perspective to questioning why I'd personally ever need more than 3 switches.

 

[Ugly Bunny]

...if you're the type to create presets per song you can simply assign Switch 1 to increment through scenes and have each scene correspond to parts of the song, for example scene 1 clean, scene 2 crunch, scene 3 high gain, scene 4 crunch (copy of scene 2), scene 5 high gain (copy of scene3), scene 6 lead, and scene 6 high gain (copy of scene 3). This way there is no thinking involved, for the next part of the song you simply hit the same switch.

This is actually pretty brilliant... I might try this out for a few songs. It'd be nice to, for instance, be able to tap ANY switch for the next part as opposed to having to "aim" with my foot while I'm trying to play and sing at the same time. I don't think I have more than 2 or 3 scenes in any songs, so it should be easy enough to set this up.

 

[Paulzx]

You can also get the FM3 and try it for 14 days and only lose out on shipping, so that's another way to go.

Don't mention that.. I've been fighting the urge to do that very thing lol

 

[Admin M@]

If the 3 switches for the Fm3 won't work for you, at least you tried the most flexible 3 button system there is.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

I'm trying to imagine how easy it is to toggle different scenes with those three switches, quickly enough to do it mid song, that could be tricky. i expect most people bought one of the extra foot controller boards to get around that

The Fractal foot controllers have great integration with the modelers, and they add additional pedal/switch jacks for those who want lots of additional pedals, however, you can use MIDI to do similar things. The various MIDI controllers vary in their out-of-the-box integration with the Fractal modelers; When I first looked at them there were no out-of-the-box settings forcing me to do it all and that was enough of a PITA that going with the FC6 was a no brainer, but now you can tell the units which modeler you're using and they can integrate very easily.

Can they do it as well? I don't think so because Fractal owns that integration, but you can probably save a bit of money going that route. Others in the forum can make suggestions, and there are other threads specifically about doing this.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

I don't believe I've ever had a song which needed 8 distinct sounds in it, rarely more than 3 playing live. In the case that you'd need 4 at hand in the default layout you'd need 2 steps to access that 4th sound in the default scene layout.

Seriously. Genesis would have only needed three scenes for ABACAB, Stairway to Heaven maybe four.

 

[Paulzx]

If the 3 switches for the Fm3 won't work for you, at least you tried the most flexible 3 button system there is.

In the default scene layout the 3 buttons correspond to scene 1-3 of your preset. To access 4-6 to long press the right switch and then the switches apply are assigned to 4-6. Long press the left switch and you're back to 1-3. I don't believe I've ever had a song which needed 8 distinct sounds in it, rarely more than 3 playing live. In the case that you'd need 4 at hand in the default layout you'd need 2 steps to access that 4th sound in the default scene layout.

That said...the layout is completely customizable. For example...if you're the type to create presets per song you can simply assign Switch 1 to increment through scenes and have each scene correspond to parts of the song, for example scene 1 clean, scene 2 crunch, scene 3 high gain, scene 4 crunch (copy of scene 2), scene 5 high gain (copy of scene3), scene 6 lead, and scene 6 high gain (copy of scene 3). This way there is no thinking involved, for the next part of the song you simply hit the same switch.

Or...set left switch to toggle between 2 scenes, middle switch as a lead boost which you can engage on either scene, and right can be for any mod effect/tap tempo/whatever. Or...switch 1 cycles Amp Channel A/B, switch 2 toggles volume boost and delay, switch 3 increments preset. Or....literally whatever.

It's a different way of thinking without question. All my life I've felt I needed more switches in order to handle performance needs. Once I tried the HX Stomp and Boss GT Core I saw how a 3 switch box could almost do everything I wanted, the FM3 completely shifted my perspective to questioning why I'd personally ever need more than 3 switches.

That is a good method, thexway you describe to progress through a series of scenes in correct order for the song you're playing. I can see how that would work.

The main difference for me is that I rarely make presets for particular songs, my presets are geared towards certain types of amps, each preset tends to have the same layout, snapshots and versatility, just the amps vary from preset to preset.

That's why I have a lot of snapshots per preset, it's so I can access a lot of different sounds using that one particular amp, not a song as such. So for my 2204 Marshall preset I'll have a dry snapshot, a short delay, a long delay, a solo boost, a flanger, a chorus etc but of course those are all set up to work with each given snapshot, I don't switch any individual stomp box effects on and off. This gives me any combination of effects I want with one foot switch, easy to access it all.

If I went back to a Stomp box layout, I think it would be easier to deal with the fm3 foot switches, or progressive scenes like you said. I don't think there's any way to replicate how my helix pedal board layout works though, not without an fc6 at least.

 

[stdout]

@Paulzx as no one has mentioned it I would check out stand-in switches in the manual. They provide the full functionality of the FM switches minus the scribble strip. All for about $20. Another thing you might take a look at is Morningstar midi controllers which now have integrated support for displaying FAS preset and scene names. I mention them because the prices are reasonable and they are on a constant path of upgrading their device functionality.

 

[Johnnyh64]

I'm trying to imagine how easy it is to toggle different scenes with those three switches, quickly enough to do it mid song, that could be tricky. i expect most people bought one of the extra foot controller boards to get around that

That’s why I bought an FC6 . It does make it much easier but at the same time, it’s more to carry and takes up more room (although not more than the other options). I honestly feel the 3 buttons are enough for a lot of cases because if you use it in the OMG9 setup, you have to tap on a completely separate unit to access presets, scenes or effects. Depending on how you actually position the units, whether right next to each other or as I do with 2 pedals in between, they can be somewhat distant from each other. Conversely, on the FM3 itself, it’s a matter of ONE extra hold on button #2 to access the master layout (presets, scenes, effects). Granted there is an additional one more hold on the scenes page button #3 to access scenes 4-6 but all of these foot moves are done on one unit rather than reaching to a different unit all together.

In summary, if floor space is not an issue for you, get the FM6 with the FM3 or FM9 for more CPU, if you play some smaller stages or don’t want to carry more gear, you can really get it done with the FM3 itself. It is truly the most well thought out 3 button system I have experienced and it sounds GREAT! If you don’t build incredibly complex presets and you find the FM3 is enough processing power, the advantage to using either 3 buttons or 9 buttons with the FM3+FC6 is nice to have depending on your needs for the day/gig.

I also owned the Helix and do miss the usability of the interface and the buttons for scenes etc..it is clearly the best user interface experience around, but the SOUND of the FM3 was just much better to me, and that’s what matters to me, so I’m happy to be team Fractal .

 

[Will Chen]

That is a good method, thexway you describe to progress through a series of scenes in correct order for the song you're playing. I can see how that would work.

The main difference for me is that I rarely make presets for particular songs, my presets are geared towards certain types of amps, each preset tends to have the same layout, snapshots and versatility, just the amps vary from preset to preset.

That's why I have a lot of snapshots per preset, it's so I can access a lot of different sounds using that one particular amp, not a song as such. So for my 2204 Marshall preset I'll have a dry snapshot, a short delay, a long delay, a solo boost, a flanger, a chorus etc but of course those are all set up to work with each given snapshot, I don't switch any individual stomp box effects on and off. This gives me any combination of effects I want with one foot switch, easy to access it all.

If I went back to a Stomp box layout, I think it would be easier to deal with the fm3 foot switches, or progressive scenes like you said. I don't think there's any way to replicate how my helix pedal board layout works though, not without an fc6 at least.

You have 8 scenes per preset in the FM3. Obviously, a 3 button device isn't going to work without some add-ons if you need to have all switches available instantly at all times. But you're example...I don't understand what you're saying. I can set up the FM3 as follows:

Scene 1 - Dry, Scene 2 - flange, Scene 3 - Short Delay, Scene 4 - Long Delay, Scene 5 - Chorus, Scene 6 Boost

Scenes 1,2,3 available on switches 1-3. Tap any and get that scene. Let's say I'm in Scene 1 and want Scene 6: long press right switch then tap it again. I want to go from Scene 6 to 3: long press left switch then tap switch 2. It's not as convenient as having every switch available, but totally doable for just playing around. But again...in practice I've found it very rare to need more than 3-4 sounds to handle a specific song in a live setting.

 

[Paulzx]

@Paulzx as no one has mentioned it I would check out stand-in switches in the manual. They provide the full functionality of the FM switches minus the scribble strip. All for about $20. Another thing you might take a look at is Morningstar midi controllers which now have integrated support for displaying FAS preset and scene names. I mention them because the prices are reasonable and they are on a constant path of upgrading their device functionality.

Interesting, I'll check that out

 

[Paulzx]

You have 8 scenes per preset in the FM3. Obviously, a 3 button device isn't going to work without some add-ons if you need to have all switches available instantly at all times. But you're example...I don't understand what you're saying. I can set up the FM3 as follows:

Scene 1 - Dry, Scene 2 - flange, Scene 3 - Short Delay, Scene 3 Long Delay, Scene 4 - Chorus, Scene 6 Boost

Scenes 1,2,3 available on switches 1-3. Tap any and get that scene. Let's say I'm in Scene 1 and want Scene 6: long press right switch then tap it again. I want to go from Scene 6 to 3: long press left switch then tap switch 2. It's not as convenient as having every switch available, but totally doable for just playing around. But again...in practice I've found it very rare to need more than 3-4 sounds to handle a specific song in a live setting.

Okay, it's becoming a bit clearer - the switch situation on the fm3 as you've all described, and the practical situation I'm coming from.

I can see some people are a bit confused as to why i would need 8 patches available at any one time - well that's because it's not for one song, I run my Helix presets based around amp types, not songs. Maybe I've taken a completely different approach to this, but I stopped using my Helix in stomp box mode or song preset mode a long time ago - this is mainly because I'm not gigging so I don't have actual song set lists as such. I dial in the amp I want, add all the effects blocks I would need and then have a snap shot for each instance just so it's there if I want it, therefore - fully driven marshall with reverb, then same with delay, same with flanger, same with chorus, etc etc, and of course it's possible to do with the snapshot feature on Helix. It does have some advantages to just kicking on individual effects assigned to the foot switches because you can better tailor multiple sounds to each snapshot.

I'm not concerned with portability or space, but I realise most guys are looking at the three fm3 switches from a per song/gigging point of view, whereas I'm more experimental with amps and combinations of sounds in each preset. I can see how it would work that you could get around three switches just for each song you play - of course I was thinking more of how do i replicate my Helix layout on the fm3, hence needing more foot switches. Maybe I need to change the way I've been setting up my presets then.

Totally agree with Johnnyh64 - Helix is by far the most flexible, user friendly unit - but I know the fractal will sound better so that is too irresistible a pull for me not to get one, I'm trying to cover all bases really, but I've come to the conclusion, I have two realistic choices..

FM9 with all the foot switches - presumably I can set that up with all the multiple scenes/combinations on the foot switches so it's similar to Helix snap shots

FM3 and I make the presets based more around actual songs therefore not requiring quite as many scenes and it's just a simpler preset.

On another note - I currently run two 1/4" cables out of my Helix, to a pair of HS7 monitors. Can I do the same with an FM3 or would I need to change to two XLR cables?

 

[Will Chen]

FM3 and I make the presets based more around actual songs therefore not requiring quite as many scenes and it's just a simpler preset.

You're still not getting it, or maybe I'm not getting you. Fractal units IMHO are more power than Line 6 when it comes to per preset functionality. While the Helix has Snapshots, Fractal uses a combination of channels and scenes. A channel is a collection of block settings, including type within that block such as overdrive type, and most blocks allow 4 channels. A scene is a collection of block states (bypassed or on) and channel selection. So for example, you want to switch between 4 different overdrives? That takes 1 drive block and 4 scenes.

While the FM3 has 3 footswitches the underlying architecture is the same as the FM9 in terms of having 8 distinct scenes PER PRESET. This is different than the Line 6 implementation where the Helix has 8 snapshots but the HX Stomp only has 3. The FM3 has a way without adding any additional pedals for you to easily access all 8 scenes per preset due to a functionality called LAYOUT. There are a bunch of factory presets on the FM3 designed exactly with the usage you are describing: a single amp with 8 different scenes with different effects on/off. To access scenes 4-8, one simply has to learn how to navigate the device by foot.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

[…]Fractal uses a combination of channels and scenes. A channel is a collection of block settings, including type within that block such as overdrive type, and most blocks allow 4 channels. A scene is a collection of block states (bypassed or on) and channel selection.

Channels are useful but don't forget scene controllers. They're very flexible and can control multiple parameters across multiple blocks, similar to channels. Add the two together and there's a lot of ability to manipulate a preset's blocks.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

On another note - I currently run two 1/4" cables out of my Helix, to a pair of HS7 monitors. Can I do the same with an FM3 or would I need to change to two XLR cables?

See chapter 4, starting on page 27 in the manual. It has a lot of examples for connecting the FM3 to various other equipment.

 

[la szum]

Why not use the Fractal on its own terms and not reduce/compare it to the Helix?

I don't mean that in a snarky sense either. I came from tube amps/pedalboard to
Helix, to Kemper, and then to Fractal. I found the best results just getting the Fractal
and then using it. That way I learned what it could do, and found a way better outcome
through discovery than through the reduction method where I tried to make the Fractal
be and do something it is not.

Like others have already mentioned, the 3 switches are mind-bogglingly diverse and efficient.
Just have to have it n your hands, or under your feet, to discover the path forward.

 

[Will Chen]

Channels are useful but don't forget scene controllers. They're very flexible and can control multiple parameters across multiple blocks, similar to channels. Add the two together and there's a lot of ability to manipulate a preset's blocks.

I used those a ton in when I had the AX8. I've not had a need to with channel implementation so far, but you are correct. Lot's of ways to switch lot's of things in the Fractal universe.

 

[hobbes1]

Why not use the Fractal on its own terms and not reduce/compare it to the Helix?

I am a long term Helix user as well. IMHO, it's not a matter of "reducing/comparing" the Fractal gear with the Helix in a competitive way. Coming to the FMx is a very different way of looking at setting up the device. With Helix, you can mix and match Snapshots and effects on/off. So, I can have Clean, Crunch, Lead and Acoustic sim on four buttons and then I can set up Flanger, Delay, Drive, etc. on other buttons and toggle them on/off as needed in combination with the Snapshots. It's all there right in front of me and I know exactly where everything is on the Helix board.
With the FM3, which I have, I am seeing the need to figure out a standardized way of implementing Layouts. With nine Layouts to choose from, and often different effects in a given preset for different needs, Per Preset overrides, Toggle between various things (Scenes or Effects or presets or banks) and then Hold functionality, Channels, Control Switches, etc......Well, yes, it's really flexible...but....I feel like one needs to have a very sharp memory to remember what things are where and in what preset.
The use case for the FM3 seems targeted at people who tend to use a standardized arrangement of "gear" and then get used to that, so it's easier to know what button will take you where. Just my $0.02. I have an FM9 coming so I can see whether the extra money is worth it to me or not. I tend to like a preset that can tackle different eras of the same band, for example. Or, as the previous person says, is grouped around a specific amp tone. Then again, I like to experiment and mess around. YMMV.

 

[Will Chen]

I am a long term Helix user as well. IMHO, it's not a matter of "reducing/comparing" the Fractal gear with the Helix in a competitive way. Coming to the FMx is a very different way of looking at setting up the device. With Helix, you can mix and match Snapshots and effects on/off. So, I have have Clean, Crunch, Lead and Acoustic sim on four buttons and then I can set up Flanger, Delay, Drive, etc. on other buttons and toggle them on/off as needed in combination with the Snapshots. It's all there right in front of me and I know exactly where everything is on the Helix board.
With the FM3, which I have, I am seeing the need to figure out a standardized way of implementing Layouts. With nine Layouts to choose from, and often different effects in a given preset for different needs, Per Preset overrides, Toggle between various things (Scenes or Effects or presets or banks) and then Hold functionality, Channels, Control Switches, etc......Well, yes, it's really flexible...but....I feel like one needs to have a very sharp memory to remember what things are where and in what preset.
The use case for the FM3 seems targeted at people who tend to use a standardized arrangement of "gear" and then get used to that, so it's easier to know what button will take you where. Just my $0.02. I have an FM9 coming so I can see whether the extra money is worth it to me or not. I tend to like a preset that can tackle different eras of the same band, for example. Or, as the previous person says, is grouped around a specific amp tone. Then again, I like to experiment and mess around. YMMV.

Ah got it...again if you absolutely need every switch available at all times a 3 button unit isn't going to work no matter the maker. I haven't gigged in what feels like forever, but back when I did and was running an FCB1010 with the KPA I started out with a layout like that but quickly found I much preferred stepping on on single switch to engage a ready to go tone rather than emulating a pedal board where I'd have to take 3 steps to switch from clean/chorus, disengage the chorus, to dirty, and engage delay. At that point, the second row of my FCB simply sat idle and I started questioning why I wanted so many switches. I had the AX8 and found the same, rarely ever used more than 4 switches. Now here I am happy with 3. I will add the caveat may be looping where I'd finally wish I had more. I haven't experimented with that on the FM3 yet.

 

[Paulzx]

You're still not getting it, or maybe I'm not getting you. Fractal units IMHO are more power than Line 6 when it comes to per preset functionality. While the Helix has Snapshots, Fractal uses a combination of channels and scenes. A channel is a collection of block settings, including type within that block such as overdrive type, and most blocks allow 4 channels. A scene is a collection of block states (bypassed or on) and channel selection. So for example, you want to switch between 4 different overdrives? That takes 1 drive block and 4 scenes.

While the FM3 has 3 footswitches the underlying architecture is the same as the FM9 in terms of having 8 distinct scenes PER PRESET. This is different than the Line 6 implementation where the Helix has 8 snapshots but the HX Stomp only has 3. The FM3 has a way without adding any additional pedals for you to easily access all 8 scenes per preset due to a functionality called LAYOUT. There are a bunch of factory presets on the FM3 designed exactly with the usage you are describing: a single amp with 8 different scenes with different effects on/off. To access scenes 4-8, one simply has to learn how to navigate the device by foot.

Yep but I'm not saying the fm3 can't do any of that, I'm simply saying that however you look at it, the fm3 hasn't got the foot switches available to have a multitude of options ready on their own switches, like I have currently on my helix.

I don't have to cycle any switches. To replicate that system on an fm3, I have to do some tap dancing. I know you're saying it's easy to do that, but I'm saying I don't want to do that, I want each option on its own switch ideally.

I think I need to try one to get a feel for if I can put up with doing more toggling of foot switches than I'm used to