Powered FRFR Cabinet for Bass?

Optimus Stein

Optimus Stein

Member
Howdy, Folks. My band has been using QSC K12s and we're upgrading to Mission Gemini powered cabs. I noticed that they aren't recommended for Bass and neither are the other usual suspects.

Any recommendations for a FRFR Powered Cab that pairs well with the AxeIII and a Bass?
 
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My bassist uses AccuGroove Latte passive cabs with a Matrix amp.

However, other than his opinion, I can't comment on how they sound for bass as we only use IEMs in our band.

He really likes them, and they sound great for guitar, too (I've played through them with my rig).
 
Honestly, the K12 (especially if it's v2) is a pretty solid choice for bass. I use one for my projects (AX8 live mostly), going clear down to F# tuning without any real issues. It's not "FRFR", but, that's a tall ask for bass production considering the range involved.
 
Check the specs and your ears. You want some performance at really low frequencies. Doesn't have to be -3dB "flat", but you want some low end extension to provide some fundamental. My experience listening/shopping to a LOT of powered PA cabs is that many cheaper 15" powered PA or powered cab type solutions offer better performance in the <60 Hz regime than 12" models. I know, there are no absolutes in loudspeaker design, but most of the commercial offerings end up that way (in the powered PA scene, at least).

The QSC K12 is a very, very nice PA speaker. However, it's -6dB at 52 Hz and -10dB at 48 Hz. Your low E note has a fundamental of 40Hz.

Contrast that with a very mediocre speaker like the JBL EON315 (I have one that I use for in-home monitoring). It's -3dB at 50Hz and -10dB at 38 Hz... I bought it used for less than $200, it's not fancy (it's plastic!), but it sounds better on the E-string than a lot of other 12" PAs I have auditioned. It sounds better as a monitor than the K12. I'd never dream of it replacing a bass stack or providing significant SPLs in place of our band's normal PA setup, but its low frequency output makes it more accurate sounding for my use.

How humans detect the timbre of string instruments is fascinating. The fundamental isn't the strongest peak, but you still need it to be there to some extent to register the low note in the brain.

You need to get a pretty high-end 12" PA speaker or a specially-designed 12" powered cab in order to get down in the 30-40Hz region. Most of these PAs are designed to perform OK on low bass and really shine with dedicated subs.

I'd love to have a powered Greenboy Fearless F112 or a Fearful 15/6/1. These are examples of cabs really designed to go down low.

Again, no absolutes, but check the specs and your ears. A 12" PA that I've auditioned that sounds great on bass is the JBL SRX812. It's -3dB 48Hz and -10dB 40Hz.... and $1299 MSRP.

Definitely don't fall into the trap of taking a guitarist's recommendation on FRFR gear. You can talk yourself into thinking that those last few Hertz don't matter much down low, but it's a mistake. I know a couple guys who use the Alto TS212 as a low-budget guitar FRFR and it sounds like absolute garbage for bass. Even worse than the specs would indicate).

God help you if you play a 5-string with a low B and want to try to reproduce that well through most commercial PAs...

There's not a great set of FRFR options in the bass world. You can get great low frequency performance, but it comes at great cost.
 
lqdsnddist said:
I play my basses through my CLR and think it sounds great, nice deep and tight lows.
Click to expand...

I've not heard one with, and I just gave advice to use both your ears and the specs...

That said, the CLR data I can find shows something like -25dB response at 40Hz. They talk about the flatness of their product from 70Hz on up. The manual I found on line has a nice frequency plot that shows all this, even their specs are "70Hz-18kHz, +/- 2.5 dB". This is a product that should be great for guitar (and it's well reviewed as great in that application), but you're missing a lot of low frequency content!!
 
You don't need fundametal at all on low E or B. Most of what you actually hear are the 2nd harmonic and up. Unless you are in like a reggae band where that big, billowy, bloomy phatness is your thing... but even then, you want the PA to handle that and your on-stage monitor to just let you play, not reproduce that. Like I said, I use my K12.2 with my Dingwalls tuned down to F# in hard rock and metal bands, and have -zero- issues. Plus is sounds fantastic.
 
"Most of what you hear is the second harmonic." Yes, that is correct.

"You don't need the fundamental at all." I disagree. The proportion of the fundamental to the overtone series as well as the ADSR profile of these frequencies helps our brains distinguish timbres of a same pitch. Yeah, you can have a missing fundamental and still register a low E, but it won't sound exactly like a bass. Unlike many acoustic instruments that don't always transfer a fundamental well into the air (and we're not used to hearing them), an electric bass's string movements at the fundamental are easily detected and reproduced by a magnetic pickup.

We can agree to disagree on that last statement, however. Let me take another approach:

Let's say you use only your "not-quite-low-enough" PA or powered monitor to dial in all your bass tones. It sounds great in practice sessions, and it sounds fine with a band rehearsal where all you are hearing is your own speaker.

Then you plug into a board somewhere and play through the house where there's an array of subs that can easily cover below the range of your personal monitor setup. You'll have no idea what you're sending the sound guy/gal-- you've tweaked all your sounds on something that doesn't go that low. If it's not pretty, they are going to reach for the HPF and shelve whatever you're throwing at the FOH. You're now a problem they have to solve. I can guarantee that they won't pick an exact crossover frequency that matches your cab. Might just nuke everything 200Hz or below. Maybe they want more low bass, something you've not been able to hear is missing on your "not-quite-low-enough" PA setup. If they dial up some bass in their EQ, they might grab a hold of some of the low-mids and make your band's mix get overly muddy.

Same thing can/will happen with a recording session. If you're not using something to accurately monitor your signal across its entire range, you don't really know what you're sending the control room.

Perhaps you'll never play through a FOH PA or record your playing. In that case, it doesn't really matter whether it's Full Range OR Flat Response. Tweak your sound however you like using the Axe Fx, in that case.

If you do elect to go for a "FRFR" setup that really doesn't quite go that low, I'd highly recommend getting a decent pair of headphones that are flat and go into the bass/sub-bass frequencies. Listen at levels approximating what you think a performance would entail (#fletchermunson, but don't hurt your ears!) and tweak your tone carefully. While you're at it, though, add one last block in your Axe Fx that adds a HPF EQ around 70 Hz. A/B that block on and off and decide if you can't tell a difference.

I play an EADG 4-String, so I want to be able to have as flat a response as possible down to about 36.7 Hz (allowing for a Drop-D note). Below that, I actually want nothing. I don't want to compete with any drum sounds down below 36.7 and I don't want to unnecessarily stress a power amp with those frequencies.
 
There are plenty of good powered subs you can hook up with most FRFR monitor speakers, and/or powered subs you can hook up with studio monitors. I have a Presonus T10 with my Scepters, sounds amazing. I've also ran a powered sub with my CLR, using the sub outs and it sounds great for synths and production stuff.

However, when I'm performing/playing, with a 4 string, I find I have always been able to hear myself quite well with just the CLR. FOH may have some subs etc, or might just have some larger 2 or 3 way cabs, but still works. I've known a lot of bass players over the years and they've often plugged straight into the board, or a pedal, hearing themselves just in a monitor feed. Is it 100% full range ? No, but it works and its pretty darn for most applications. I know lots of folks who just have 6 or 8" desktop monitors they use for tracking and they turn out well produced stuff, without a sub etc.

Its nice to have as full of range as possible, and I'm sure for 5 string, dub stuff etc, its appreciated, but there really isn't any reason I couldn't see someone able to perform with just a CLR, K12, Xitone wedge etc.

Just all comes down to what one's respective needs are. I mainly play guitar, so I'm not as worried about an ideal bass rig, but I own a few basses, and play keyes etc, and don't feel I'm missing out
 
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