Power Amp for Loud Doom Metal

Hi everyone,

I have been playing a Carvin DCM1540L into two 4x12 cabs for quite some time.
Sunn 412 with Weber Tone Cvlt Dire Wolf speakers and an Avatar 412 with 2 ET-65s and 2 Retro-30s.

I still find myself running out of headroom here (yes, I'm not joking). We're a 3 piece with no vocals and I'm the only guitarist and most of the time we play DIY shows with a bad PA, so we forego it.

Should I be looking into tube amplification like the VHT, Mesa, and Randall offerings for power amps,
or should I just trade up to a DCM3800L and enjoy the extra headroom?

Also, my 2 cabs are running in 8ohms each side.

Cheers,
 
Headroom or volume? Since you said DOOM I'm going with you need more volume. The solution is more speakers, not more watts.
 
I might be having an issue with gain staging in my presets actually. It sucks though because I can't try anything before buying. I need to dive straight in and I always manage to lose a little money when selling used gear again.

I'm going to have to experiment again tonight. My Global EQ is totally flat, so maybe I can create a curve to get me in the mix better.
I might just pick up a DCM3800L for having headroom for the sake of having it alone. At the same weight, it is a direct drop in replacement.

Something about playing through my Ampeg V4 is just incredible though. I'm not here to have a "versus" tube discussion, I just want to figure out if I am lacking in the headroom department or really just want to get something like a Mesa 50/50 or Peavey 50/50 and crank up and vibrate some torsos.
 
Headroom is having more amplification left to prevent distortion. Usually it's applied in reference to a clean signal.

I assume you have the output knob turned up, and output signal set to +4db. Also your input pad should be set to get a little clipping when hitting the strings hard.

What are the impedance ratings of the cabs? With solid state amps, the lower the impedance, the more output you get.

Tube power is generally thought to have a stronger, more full, output at higher volumes, or when pushed.

Try a used QSC GXD8 if you want to stick with SS...

http://www.guitarcenter.com/Used/QSC/GXD8-Power-Amp-112969932.gc
 
Headroom at volume equals wattage with SS amps! but this will only work to a certain degree. Thermally speaking one cab has a 400 watt capacity the other 300. So technically speaking either cab is only going to handle so much before you nuke the voice coils.

The rule of thumb is 2-3 times the wattage of a tube amp for a SS amp to have the same headroom as a tube amp. The reason for this is because the way a tube amp clips compared to a SS amp. A 100 watt tube can get loud

One other thing to consider is the two different speakers that you are running, it would be a good idea to find out what the sensitivity ratings are for the two different speakers. The higher the number the louder it will be with the same amount of power running to it when compared to a speaker with a lower number.

A Celestion Vintage 30 speaker has a sensitivity rating of 100 dB! where as a G12M has a sensitivity of only 96 dB. That can have a noticeable effect on volume when running the power knobs at the same location on the amp... just some food for thought!.

The Carvin 1540 has a fair amount of power but when you look at the specs the THD is 0.03 @ 50% so to get the full 750 watts @ 8 ohms or 1225 watts @ 4 ohms you will be increasing the THD % in the amp the higher you turn up the volume which equals more distortion or sonic nastiness you don't want.

Lastly... If I were you I would probably look at the VHT 2150 and call it done! Man... your ears and the ears of your guests must bleed after you do a gig :D
 
you can get the mesa and it will solve your problems, but if you want to look cool, just get 2 old Oranges, or ModelTs, or SVTs, and use them in stereo.
 
Can I hijack this thread and ask how you approach creating presets for doom? I've been jamming with friends to make some music in the veins of Primitive Man, Conan and Fistula, but I can't achieve the gritty and powerful sound that is so particular for this kind of music. A while ago I played through a friend's Matamp GT2, with the same cab I'm using during the rehearsal, and was almost literally blown away.

I'm convinced the Axe-Fx II can replicate these kinds of sounds, but I just don't find the way how to...
 
Can I hijack this thread and ask how you approach creating presets for doom? I've been jamming with friends to make some music in the veins of Primitive Man, Conan and Fistula, but I can't achieve the gritty and powerful sound that is so particular for this kind of music. A while ago I played through a friend's Matamp GT2, with the same cab I'm using during the rehearsal, and was almost literally blown away.

I'm convinced the Axe-Fx II can replicate these kinds of sounds, but I just don't find the way how to...


I think that the Axe can probably do anything EXCEPT this...
In theory, no digital gear can do it.

But
Have you tried taking a brit or citrus and turning the bass all the way up, then post EQing it down with a fuzz in front?
I think tonight I'll try to make a doom preset with my AX8. I never had success before, but I was always relying on the fuzz models, and that was never going to work.
 
Sorry its been a few days, my brain has been cooking up a lot.
Yes, Conan, Primitive Man, Bongripper, etc are the specific types of doom.

I find it a little hard to convey that sometimes because this type of doom albeit tends to use traditional doom gear, I would argue that with these bands in particular, if you don't have the right gear, and the amount of gear, you just won't get the sound.

This post is going to be a little long and I'm going to ramble a little bit. I usually don't like to preface things like this, but here it goes:

Thankfully I have quite a bit of access to this gear through a few friends who are either in doom bands, or are into the types of gear as a hobby. Tube gear definitely helps whether I would like to admit that or not, but when it comes down to it, you need POWER. At least in my experience, Cab(s) + Power Amp is a must. A lot of the tone is going to depend on how your guitar is going to react to the sounds coming out of the environment (ie, speakers) to get the insane feedback that's associated with the genre.

Patches: Believe it or not, this is one of the more simple things in the process. Don't let identity of amps prevent you from using them. A Fender Deluxe Reverb in the Amp Block has been one of my favorites, honestly. A lot of what I do here is replicate some of my favorites (like listed above) by listening and matching to taste at a loud as fuck volume.

Now I was several firmwares behind until a few days ago, so I can't speak too much of this because it may have changed, but I have had a hard time uses the built in fuzzes. Just buying something like a Black Arts Toneworks Pharaoh or Earthquaker Devices Acapulco Gold and putting it in will probably yield some better results.

I actually get compliments on my tone at every show, but I think a lot of it is because I break from the stereotypical gear being used.

Update on the power amp stuff,
I bought a Peavey Classic 50/50 from my local shop for $240 and my initial impressions are meh. I think I'm starting to accept that I really am in love with my sound already and I'm just going to up my power amp to the DCM3800L. Ron, the bass player from Bongripper actually uses it (he might use two actually). So for just guitar, I should have more headroom with it than I would ever need. I would blow my speakers before going into SS distortion. I'm also looking into the QSC that vick100 suggested (thanks!). Also, as Sixstring suggested will be looking into that too. And yes, it approaches some unsafe volumes.

Also as stated above, EQ. My technical knowledge is lacking in this department, but just from personal experience, it isn't going to matter how crazy loud you are if you can't be heard in the mix :). Kind of the point of this topic was, right now I am actually getting adequate levels for my sound, I just find myself getting into a range that if I push a little further, I'm getting a little too close for comfort on clipping.

I didn't expect this topic to even get any replies, so thank you all so much for participating. I
 
Thanks SoProg and Jimmy Gaydos for the response! :)

I think that the Axe can probably do anything EXCEPT this...
In theory, no digital gear can do it.

Although I always believed I could achieve every tone I desired with my Axe-Fx, I'm starting to feel the same way as you do. When I was building patches for this doom project I was jamming with, I literally went the route you suggested, starting from the citrus amp with fuzz pedals in front. And to be honest, I never succeeded in finding the guttural and gritty sound I was looking for.

Luckily, next week I'm doing a try-out for a post-(black)metal band and for this kind of music the Axe-Fx is stellar. So, if the try-out goes well and if I start playing in this band, I might suppress my urges to buy a Matamp or Sunn Model T for my doomy needs...

I find it a little hard to convey that sometimes because this type of doom albeit tends to use traditional doom gear, I would argue that with these bands in particular, if you don't have the right gear, and the amount of gear, you just won't get the sound

I totally agree. This kind of music is so depended on overtones, harmonics, feedback and power. I just don't get the same interaction between my guitar and my speakers when I'm playing through the Axe-Fx.

Now I was several firmwares behind until a few days ago, so I can't speak too much of this because it may have changed, but I have had a hard time uses the built in fuzzes. Just buying something like a Black Arts Toneworks Pharaoh or Earthquaker Devices Acapulco Gold and putting it in will probably yield some better results

I have yet the experiment with adding analog stompboxes in front of the Axe-Fx. But to be honest, I choose the Axe-Fx partly because I wanted to scale down my setup and I fear that when I start adding extra outboard gear, I will end up in a vicious circle of buying and adding more and more and more. But I totally agree that the built in fuzzes are not delivering what I was hoping for. Maybe it's just really hard to emulate the gritty and nasty tones of the pedals you suggested? I remember adiscussion on this message board from a couple of years ago with a lot of people asking to model a Boss HM-2 in the Axe-Fx for the typical swedisch death metal sound. But it never came...


Hopefully all goes well with the new power amp! Looking forward to hear the results ;)
 
I have yet the experiment with adding analog stompboxes in front of the Axe-Fx. But to be honest, I choose the Axe-Fx partly because I wanted to scale down my setup and I fear that when I start adding extra outboard gear, I will end up in a vicious circle of buying and adding more and more and more. But I totally agree that the built in fuzzes are not delivering what I was hoping for. Maybe it's just really hard to emulate the gritty and nasty tones of the pedals you suggested? I remember adiscussion on this message board from a couple of years ago with a lot of people asking to model a Boss HM-2 in the Axe-Fx for the typical swedisch death metal sound. But it never came...


Hopefully all goes well with the new power amp! Looking forward to hear the results ;)

Glad I could help a tiny bit. I would be a liar if I said it was easy. I actually gave up on the Axe Fx a few weeks ago and bought an Ampeg V4 and a bunch of pedals. And I'm happy I did, because in doing so I got to go back to that setup and really connect with it to the point that I had my Axe Fx off to the side just waiting to take pictures of it to put on Craigslist and Reverb. I played the Ampeg with my band and it was definitely good but then it started running through my head the maintenance work being a 70s amplifier. I'm a perfectionist and I need good tubes to be happy. So by the time I do some new tubes, get all the pedals I want, etc... I realize I won't be saving money going this route in the long run and I kind of immediately ran back. Ampeg got listed and sold less than a week later. Pedals got returned.

I think I'd be really happy with the VHT tube amp, but I'm a little tired of taking risks on this gear only to sell it back. Having an ideal sound that doesn't degrade over time is something that I've taken advantage of with my current rig. DCM3800L will be coming my way soon. Nice and simple drop in replacement for my rig. No need to adjust my patches either because its the same amp.

And Objector, I've been considering doing some YouTube demos of my rig because I had a really hard time finding anyone making sounds like this so I just kind of trial and error'd my way into it. Hopefully I get my new amp soon and I can get the ball rolling. No guarantees I'll make any videos, but if I do, I'll send you a PM.
 
I know this is old but i figured id throw my experience out for anyone needing help. I Play a lot of genres, I play everything from super sludgy doom to jazz to Punk. I sold my Orange Thunderverb to buy an AX8 a few years ago. I need a spectrum of sounds for recording and the only option for me was modeling.


For the doom tone.... It took me a long time to get it. This is how i setup for recording, not live.

First thing that helped me was as simple as the I/O setup. I had been doing it wrong for awhile, i have a 2i2 and it needed to be -10db instead of +4db, also the Main and FX Out needed to be cranked for unity gain. This helped a lot.


Second thing that i do is run 2 XLRs into both of my interfaces channels, i then go into the Cab block, create a stereo Block, and hard pan each cab. Than in my Daw i run two tracks from input 1 and input 2, and pan Both to the Left. Than i just repeat the process on another two tracks panned to the right. This Creates a very huge tone on its own.


First i must say that my setup is pretty unorthodox for Doom, but the beauty of Doom "to me" is that you can make literally anything work. A misconception with this genre is that you have to use certain types of amps. The only reason certain amps are known for being "Doom Amps" is because at the time they were cheap pawn shop amps that no one wanted. That said, If i had A wall of old school Matamps behind me i KNOW i would sound better. lol


As far as my tone goes, its pretty simple. My signal Chain goes as follows, Guitar(either my MM Majesty or Vigier Excalibur) into a Drive Pedal(Wampler dual Fusion or Tube screamer variant), Into a Big Muff or other Fuzz, into The AX8. Inside the AX8 I just run any clean NMV Amp Block and whatever IR that sounds good. Lately I've been using the Princetone or Hiwatt. I personally never cared for the Fuzz pedals within my AX8 but Luckily there are hundreds of amazing Fuzz Boxes on the market and the AX8 takes them really well.


Ive been playing Stoner Rock/Doom/Sludge for a very long time and have had some really sick tube amps over the years. I will admit that running some fuzz into a Matamp/Laney/Orange/Sunn type amp is more satisfying and much easier to get the initial tone but it is absolutely possible with any good Modeling Amp. As far as Live goes..... I just use a cheap vintage tube amp with a Big Muff in front. Im sure it is possible with an Axe FX but i have yet to journey too far down that road so i am of no help.


Hopefully someone gets some use out of this....
 
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