Polytone Amp for Jazzers

[GM Arts]

Apparently, many jazz players believe a Polytone is THE amp to use for jazz styles, specially with jazz-box guitars such as an ES175. It might be a long shot on this forum, but are there any Jazzers who've used Polytone amps? If so, I'd love to get your feedback on some questions further below. I'm really just curious to try to get a Polytone sound in the Axe-FX and see how it all works.

First, here's some stuff I've deduced from a schematic:

It's all solid-state (like the Roland Jazz Chorus)

It uses a neutral tone circuit with cut & boost for bass, middle & treble. Most amps, including the Jazz Chorus, use a tone-stack which compensates for a natural low-mid emphasis in guitar pickups by cutting low mids with typical settings (a flat response with a standard tone-stack alone is middle on max, bass and treble at min). So it makes sense that the Polytone retains low-mids for jazz styles with a neutral-based tone control. The AxeFX manual states that the Jazz model uses a neutral tone circuit and that it's a model of a Japanese solid state amp with chorus, but schematics of the JC-120 show a tone-stack. Not sure what to make of that.

The tone controls are preceded by a Warm / Normal / Brite switch. Some component values appear to be deliberately misleading, but Warm gives a gentle bass lift by cutting highs more than lows, Normal is a flat response, and Brite gives significant boost to high mids and above.

The overdrive has 3 clipping diodes drawn in series in one direction and none in the other. Again, this is probably deliberately misleading. It's most likely meant to be two in one direction in parallel with one in the opposite direction which would give asymmetric clipping (like the Boss OD-1 pedal). IMHO this would be a good choice for humbucking pickups and low overdrive levels. The op-amp also has resistors in series with the power supply which change the waveform slightly, making it even more asymmetric. Tonewise, there isn't the pre-drive bass cut associated with most overdrive stomps; instead treble is cut as drive increases and there's a preset post-drive EQ that cuts highs above about 2KHz.

All of this could possibly be modelled in the AxeFX with a parametric EQ, Tape Dist or Fet Boost overdrive and NO power amp. FWIW, I don't have much experience with jazz tones, but I like to hear the guitar "woodiness" and chimey highs in a jazz tone (eg George Benson). I detest those fake jazz tones with a neck humbucker and tone on zero - to me they sound toneless, mushy, woolly & lifeless.

And finally, some questions:

(1) Any idea which Axe-FX speaker model might be close to whatever Polytone use? Their website just quotes a "heavy duty speaker".

(2) Is there any commonly accepted use of the tone control settings? (eg use the warm switch, but cut the bass control).

(3) Which AxeFX amp model(s) do you use for jazz styles now? The closest I've got to a jazz vibe is the Mr Z 38 amp model into a 1x15" SR Bass speaker. The Tube-Pre is neutral. Maybe Cliff has modelled the Jazz model as a JC-120 with a different tone network?

(4) Any other thoughts on getting Polytone sounds from the AxeFX?

After reading all of this, maybe I should just put a request on the wishlist page for a neutral tone option in the tone-stack list, and a new Polytone amp model ?

 

[hhjh.de]

I'm interested in the answers as well.

 

[danielodland]

Wouldnt a Active Tonestack with all tone controls at noon be pretty close to a neutral tonestack? Have I misunderstood something?=)

 

[GM Arts]

Wouldnt a Active Tonestack with all tone controls at noon be pretty close to a neutral tonestack?

I don't think so. I recall some earlier posts from Cliff saying that active with everything at noon is pre-EQ'd similar to a passive tonestack with everything at noon. The main difference is that the active controls don't interact with each other. Happy to be corrected if someone knows different for sure.

 

[Jay Mitchell]

I recall some earlier posts from Cliff saying that active with everything at noon is pre-EQ'd similar to a passive tonestack with everything at noon. The main difference is that the active controls don't interact with each other. Happy to be corrected if someone knows different for sure.

I took some quick response measurements of an active tonestack a little over a year ago, and they tended to confirm this statement. I had expected a more conventional three-way EQ type of response and was a little surprised at what I saw.

 

[danielodland]

Wouldnt a Active Tonestack with all tone controls at noon be pretty close to a neutral tonestack?

I don't think so. I recall some earlier posts from Cliff saying that active with everything at noon is pre-EQ'd similar to a passive tonestack with everything at noon. The main difference is that the active controls don't interact with each other. Happy to be corrected if someone knows different for sure.

Oh ok I thought they were just a +/- 12DB EQ when active, so that at noon they wouldnt do anything. Sorry bout that =)))

 

[Jay Mitchell]

Re: Polytone amp "sim," my archtop preset has no amp sim at all. As I discovered back in the 1970s, you can get a really nice jazz sound going direct into a console and using (very little) channel EQ. I have one PEQ in my archtop preset, and I only use one band to create a mild cut. I use my "clean 2x12" cab IR, which is pretty neutral, with this preset.

 

[GM Arts]

Thanks, Jay, I'll try that. The Polytone appears to have the same philosophy of being relatively flat, so the low-mid emphasis comes from natural pickup response. I'm curious if the Polytone uses a speaker "optimised" (ie coloured in some way) for jazz players.

 

[hippietim]

Re: Polytone amp "sim," my archtop preset has no amp sim at all. As I discovered back in the 1970s, you can get a really nice jazz sound going direct into a console and using (very little) channel EQ. I have one PEQ in my archtop preset, and I only use one band to create a mild cut. I use my "clean 2x12" cab IR, which is pretty neutral, with this preset.

Just curious, which of the various options do you use to get the volume up to equivalent levels of a typical patch that has an amp model?

 

[Jay Mitchell]

Just curious, which of the various options do you use to get the volume up to equivalent levels of a typical patch that has an amp model?

None are needed. All of my amp blocks are set to approximately unity gain.

 

[Matman]

I like to hear the guitar "woodiness" and chimey highs in a jazz tone

I've been playing with this config lately for some extreme chime

Comp--->Amp --->PEQ--->Cab-------------[Out]
\-->HPF--->PEQ-----------/

The first PEQ and Cab create the wood.
The 2nd PEQ counters the ultra HIs.

YMMV!

 

[Jay Mitchell]

FWIW, I don't have much experience with jazz tones,

In my experience, it has more to do with instrument, setup, and playing technique than with amplification. Once I have a guitar set up to my liking for jazz use, I can get good straight-ahead jazz sounds through a surprisingly wide range of amplification.

but I like to hear the guitar "woodiness" and chimey highs in a jazz tone (eg George Benson).

George's sound is definitely technique-intensive. Google "Benson picking" for more info. The guitar he plays and its setup make a big difference, too.

I detest those fake jazz tones with a neck humbucker and tone on zero

What jazz guitar player does that? I'm aware of none. Actually, I can think of one well-known player who uses a lot of bass, but I wouldn't exactly characterize his sound as a "fake jazz tone."

 

[glenecho]

If you're interested I did copy the Line 6 Polytone into an impulse file and it does sound nice. Pm me if interested. It is the sample of the Polytone's 1x15 speaker cab and sounds really good pared up with the JC-120 sim. Polytones come in (at least) 1x12 and 1x15 configurations. Most jazz guys I know prefer the 1x15. It's also a favorite of stand-up bass players. I was lucky enough to have one for years until I foolishly sold it a few years ago. I was pretty roundly ridiculed for asking for a Polytone sim about a month ago....looks like you've fared slightly better.

For straight ahead jazz sound I'm using a slightly modified version of the "Smokey Jazz" preset. So whatever models that those are...yeah.

For more modern stuff I use the same settings that I used on my real Mark IV ported over to the Mark IV Clean model. I've also made my own speaker impulse of my Mark IV Widebody combo. Just being able to do this sort of thing is so fun in the Axe-FX.

 

[glenecho]

What jazz guitar player does that? I'm aware of none. Actually, I can think of one well-known player who uses a lot of bass, but I wouldn't exactly characterize his sound as a "fake jazz tone."

Pat Metheny, for one, absolutely does use the neck pickup and turns his tone down to "just about zero". This according to me directly asking him the question. I'd be very surprised if Jim Hall doesn't do the same.

So did both my jazz professors in college. I've played in jazz circles for about the last 10 years or so and have seen lots that do it (I don't...I'm a Johnny Smith/Bill Frisell kind of guy).

But anyway you slice it, to get that truly big hollowbody sound you need a hollowbody, preferably IMO one without metal bridge pieces.

 

[funkle]

Apparently, many jazz players believe a Polytone is THE amp to use for jazz styles, specially with jazz-box guitars such as an ES175. It might be a long shot on this forum, but are there any Jazzers who've used Polytone amps? If so, I'd love to get your feedback on some questions further below. I'm really just curious to try to get a Polytone sound in the Axe-FX and see how it all works.

My teacher has one he uses as a backup (his main jazz amp is a Fender), which I got to play through some. I was impressed with how full and clear it was. It had a nice midrange resonance, and could get pretty dark.

As far as modeling it, there are a pleathora of amps models that provide exceedingly nice cleans in the AF. I've been able to get great jazz tones using several of them. Better sounding that the Mini Brute IMO. The reverb is so lush. My current favorite is the DR Z. But I've gotten great results with the Rolland JC. Mesa Clean, JTM45, dumble, and various fenders. A little power stage drive can be nice to add a little compression and life as long as your chords are still clear (or you can back off on the guitar volume knob for comping). The 2x12 black cab sounds the most natural to me. Personally I see little point in trying to perfectly recreate a specific amp. Just experiment and find build some patches that sound like what you are looking for

 

[AdamCook]

Pat Metheny, for one, absolutely does use the neck pickup and turns his tone down to "just about zero". This according to me directly asking him the question. I'd be very surprised if Jim Hall doesn't do the same.

That's the only gripe I've ever had with Metheny. I absolutely don't understand why he and so many other jazz players feel the need to roll off so much treble. I understand you don't want to emphasize the pick attack but they roll it off so much at times it makes it very hard to hear the wonderful chord voicings they use.

With that said, there are times where his tone is outstanding. On his new album Day Trip I think he has one of the best sounds. And of course his classic Bright Size Life tone had a lot more high end than most of his recordings.

This is my old guitar teacher...I love his jazz box sound...plenty of high end: http://www.myspace.com/bobsneidermusic

 

[chase]

Wouldnt a Active Tonestack with all tone controls at noon be pretty close to a neutral tonestack?

I don't think so. I recall some earlier posts from Cliff saying that active with everything at noon is pre-EQ'd similar to a passive tonestack with everything at noon. The main difference is that the active controls don't interact with each other. Happy to be corrected if someone knows different for sure.

Oh ok I thought they were just a +/- 12DB EQ when active, so that at noon they wouldnt do anything. Sorry bout that =)))

Yeah, I believe Cliff originally modeled the amps with their native tonestack included and set to high noon, and used the "active" tonestack as an offset on top of that, rather than modeling the amps without the tonestack and inserting an active tonestack into the circuit, so the inherent frequency curve of the tonestack at 5-5-5 is still present. I think the intent was to make it easier to get that characteristic curve and still have the flexibility of a non-interactive EQ, but it's understandable that people would guess he took the latter approach.

GM Arts: that was a thoughtful, well-researched post. I don't know the Polytone and I don't play jazz, but if you're going for a neutral tone, Jay's suggestion to skip the amp makes a lot of sense. After all, if the goal of the Polytone is to be as transparent as possible, then you can already achieve that, and use the PEQ, comp, and drive blocks to dial in the exact tone. In a sense, the Polytone is an attempt to get with transistors what you can now do with digital. Of course your aim is actually to recreate the coloring created by its "imperfections", then that's a different story.

 

[chase]

Oh, and I would support the addition of a "true" active tonestack that replaced the native tonestack completely. I'm still curious to know what the SV Bass model is using (I guess if the original is active then using the active option as an offset amounts to the same thing, but it might be interesting to try it on other amps).

 

[Jay Mitchell]

Pat Metheny, for one, absolutely does use the neck pickup and turns his tone down to "just about zero". This according to me directly asking him the question. I'd be very surprised if Jim Hall doesn't do the same.

PM has a brighter sound on enough recordings - e.g., Still Life Talking - for me to believe he doesn't always do that. JH, on the other hand, really does like a dark sound. When he does it, so do I. A guitar player could do a lot worse than to learn to sound and play like Jim Hall.

I've played in jazz circles for about the last 10 years or so and have seen lots that do it

I was taking issue with the "fake jazz sound" remark, and trying to make the point that getting a "jazz" sound is as much about the instrument and the player's technique - more, even - than about the particular amp or tone settings.

(I don't...I'm a Johnny Smith/Bill Frisell kind of guy).

My preferences in jazz guitar sounds favor Charlie Christian, Wes, Barney Kessel, Tuck Andress (whose guitar doesn't even have a tone control), and George Benson. I also really like the uncharacteristically bright sound Pat Martino got on El Hombre, although I think Rudy Van Gelder's production had a lot to do with that. Most of the time, his tone is too bassy for me.

 

[GM Arts]

Wow! Lots of replies, many thanks all for your time and thoughts on this.

Comp--->Amp --->PEQ--->Cab-------------[Out]
\-->HPF--->PEQ-----------/
The first PEQ and Cab create the wood.
The 2nd PEQ counters the ultra HIs.

Interesting idea, thanks. This seems a great approach to find the tone I like instead of worrying about copying amps.

George's sound is definitely technique-intensive. Google "Benson picking" for more info. The guitar he plays and its setup make a big difference, too.

Thanks for that - an interesting read.

If you're interested I did copy the Line 6 Polytone into an impulse file and it does sound nice. Pm me if interested. It is the sample of the Polytone's 1x15 speaker cab and sounds really good pared up with the JC-120 sim.

Many thanks, I'm interested. PM on the way

My current favorite is the DR Z. But I've gotten great results with the Roland JC. Mesa Clean, JTM45, dumble, and various fenders.

Wow! I wouldn't have even considered a Mesa or Marshall But likewise, the best I've got so far is the Dr Z into a 15" Bass speaker. It’s pretty good, but I don’t like the way it breaks up. It's a bit rude; I have bias set on 0.7, maybe I need to experiment a bit more.

Personally I see little point in trying to perfectly recreate a specific amp. Just experiment and find build some patches that sound like what you are looking for.

I agree. I'm normally one to give this same advice to go for a tone we like and don't worry about trying to copy amps. But in this case I compared a recording of a 335 through a Polytone to the best jazz tone I could get at the time (before I had the Axe-FX), and the Polytone was way better. So I'm just curious on approaches to getting a Polytone sound from the AxeFX. The speaker is probably the biggest mystery although the schematic clearly has some misleading stuff in it.

GM Arts: that was a thoughtful, well-researched post. I don't know the Polytone and I don't play jazz, but if you're going for a neutral tone, Jay's suggestion to skip the amp makes a lot of sense. After all, if the goal of the Polytone is to be as transparent as possible, then you can already achieve that, and use the PEQ, comp, and drive blocks to dial in the exact tone. In a sense, the Polytone is an attempt to get with transistors what you can now do with digital. Of course your aim is actually to recreate the coloring created by its "imperfections", then that's a different story.

Thanks, chase. And yes, I'm keen to know if there are some Polytone "imperfections" that impart a "jazz vibe". As above, I have no idea whether the speaker is intended to be neutral or not, and also whether there are any commonly used tone settings; particularly interactions between the pre-EQ and bass/mid/treb that might cause some unique peaks and dips.

I was taking issue with the "fake jazz sound" remark, and trying to make the point that getting a "jazz" sound is as much about the instrument and the player's technique - more, even - than about the particular amp or tone settings.

Not trying to be controversial, just saying that as far as EQ goes, killing highs sounds fake to my ears, like synthesized guitar patches. As opposed to eq'ing to let the whole sound come through, and maybe enhance the strong points of the guitar's character. That's what makes it sounds like a real guitar to me. I accept other people may hear it differently and will have different preferences.