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Poll - What cabs do you want?

kdotx

Inspired
Hi Justin,
I have been wondering, what's your take and/or experience on the front loaded vs. rear loaded speakers topic?
I am just curious and trying to learn and be educated and with the amount of cabs you "met" during your work I have a hunch you might have an opinion about that matter.
Would be great to hear your thoughts, though I would fully understand if your workload is too high to allow for an answer!
Take care and happy ir shooting,
Chris
 
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York Audio

Power User
Vendor
Hi Justin,
I have been wondering, what's your take and/or experience on the front loaded vs. rear loaded speakers topic?
I am just curious and trying to learn and be educated and with the amount of cabs you "met" during your work I have a hunch you might have an opinion about that matter.
Would be great to hear your thoughts, though I would fully understand if your workload is too high to allow for an answer!
Take care and happy ir shooting,
Chris
Hi Chris,

That’s a good question. I’ll be honest and say my experience with front loaded cabs is pretty limited. The only three cabs I have that are front loaded are a Soldano 4x12, a VHT 4x12, and a VHT 2x12. I think rear loaded cabs feel beefier in the room and are more fun to play, but front loaded cabs mic really well. I almost returned all three of those cabs because they felt honky and thin in the room... but throw a mic on them, and they come to life.
 

kdotx

Inspired
Hi Chris,

That’s a good question. I’ll be honest and say my experience with front loaded cabs is pretty limited. The only three cabs I have that are front loaded are a Soldano 4x12, a VHT 4x12, and a VHT 2x12. I think rear loaded cabs feel beefier in the room and are more fun to play, but front loaded cabs mic really well. I almost returned all three of those cabs because they felt honky and thin in the room... but throw a mic on them, and they come to life.

Thank you Justin for your time and answer!

That's interesting. I had an album production in early spring (instrumental metal ish) and our main rhythm sound was my Herbie (albeit modded by Peter Diezel) and a prototype (MLC amps) owned by the studio. Heads went through my Diezel frontloaded cab (v30) and my old vht with p50s, frontloaded as well. Each cab saw 4 mics (ribbon, condenser and 2 dynamics) and the MLC sat lower in the mix, to supplement the Herbie.
The engineers actually had a rear loaded Diezel cab they didn't like a few years ago, "too bass heavy", but they did like the tightness of the frontloaded one.

Another engineering friend mentioned that frontloaded cabs often have a spike in the high mids, is that your experience as well?
We had to dial back the tone on the TS quite a bit, to get rid of some harshness, but as always, could also be the guitar, the pickups or the culmination of different things...

Thanks again for your insights, I appreciate it!
 

York Audio

Power User
Vendor
Thank you Justin for your time and answer!

That's interesting. I had an album production in early spring (instrumental metal ish) and our main rhythm sound was my Herbie (albeit modded by Peter Diezel) and a prototype (MLC amps) owned by the studio. Heads went through my Diezel frontloaded cab (v30) and my old vht with p50s, frontloaded as well. Each cab saw 4 mics (ribbon, condenser and 2 dynamics) and the MLC sat lower in the mix, to supplement the Herbie.
The engineers actually had a rear loaded Diezel cab they didn't like a few years ago, "too bass heavy", but they did like the tightness of the frontloaded one.

Another engineering friend mentioned that frontloaded cabs often have a spike in the high mids, is that your experience as well?
We had to dial back the tone on the TS quite a bit, to get rid of some harshness, but as always, could also be the guitar, the pickups or the culmination of different things...

Thanks again for your insights, I appreciate it!
The front loaded high mid spike your friend mentioned could be a number of things:

Mic used - Try multiple 57’s so see which one sounds the best on that cab. One of mine is really aggressive in the upper mids, one is pretty balanced, and one is really fizzy. His mic might be adding more upper mid content than another mic of the same kind.

Mic Preamp - They all have their own character, so try different options. The one he’s using may be accentuating that frequency range.

Speaker used - Speakers are like snowflakes. They’re all different. Try each one in the cab. Chances are you’ll like one more than the other.

Cabinet construction - After going through 14 2x12 prototypes for the YORK cabinet, I can tell you that even small differences in construction and materials can have a big impact in your overall tone. That cab might have some internal resonances that are bringing out more upper midrange.

Mic placement - Mic placement is the best EQ you could ask for. Even small adjustments can be the difference between harshness, balance, and depth. A front loaded cab might sound better with a different mic placement than the “go-to” he uses for rear loaded cabs.

At the end of the day, we just have to experiment like crazy until we find the thing that inspires us. It takes a lot of time and effort, but it’s worth it.
 

kdotx

Inspired
The front loaded high mid spike your friend mentioned could be a number of things:

Mic used - Try multiple 57’s so see which one sounds the best on that cab. One of mine is really aggressive in the upper mids, one is pretty balanced, and one is really fizzy. His mic might be adding more upper mid content than another mic of the same kind.

Mic Preamp - They all have their own character, so try different options. The one he’s using may be accentuating that frequency range.

Speaker used - Speakers are like snowflakes. They’re all different. Try each one in the cab. Chances are you’ll like one more than the other.

Cabinet construction - After going through 14 2x12 prototypes for the YORK cabinet, I can tell you that even small differences in construction and materials can have a big impact in your overall tone. That cab might have some internal resonances that are bringing out more upper midrange.

Mic placement - Mic placement is the best EQ you could ask for. Even small adjustments can be the difference between harshness, balance, and depth. A front loaded cab might sound better with a different mic placement than the “go-to” he uses for rear loaded cabs.

At the end of the day, we just have to experiment like crazy until we find the thing that inspires us. It takes a lot of time and effort, but it’s worth it.

I think he was referring to that high mid spike as a general trait of fl cabs (I wouldn't know, hence my question to you), but you're completely right: there are a bazillion knobs to turn, real ones and figurative ones, to achieve a pleasing sound!
The more tools and experience one has, the easier to excavate that David out of a big junk of marvel!
Thanks again, Justin, keep up the splendid work!
 

Postretro

Inspired
I will likely be alone, and very dated, in this request. But,

2x15 Dual Showman cab with JBL E130's

There are probably better cabs. My underlying desire is for a smoother, more rounded
-- but punchy (105spl) JBL sound to add more Treble definition and solid Bass
to the very vocal, but easily-buried, G12H and G12M 55 HZ pulsonic-coned greenbacks.

I know the world has moved on. And, this is truly a quixotic request.

The big ported cab, ceramic instead of alnico, 15's instead of 12's
-- are all about rounding out and smoothing the JBL sound.
A Theile cab may make more sense.

I simply had an amazing sound, once, with a 2x12 Celestions in a Bassman cab
and 2x15 JBL E130's in a showman cab.

It could simply be a faulty sentimental memory.

I remember these two cabs together
as a very vocal, expressive and intensely present tone -- unusually so
when used with my Marshall.
Obviously, 2 together in the same amp
is not the same as each one done individually
and then added together.

The merged impedance curve may have been as important
as anything else.

I know this is dated and personal.
But, those are the specifics and that is the underlying concept.
It is very much a 60's thing -- ancient history.

But, 2x15 JBL E130's in a showman cab
might add some unique tone and dynamics to another more expressive speaker.
 

York Audio

Power User
Vendor
All of Kevin O'Connor's de-tuned cabinet designs loaded with Fane Ascension A60s.
It’s an interesting concept. Basically removing a speaker to make a port for more low end could be kinda cool. It’s definitely something worth exploring. Thanks for the tip!
 

tealtonerick

Inspired
It’s an interesting concept. Basically removing a speaker to make a port for more low end could be kinda cool. It’s definitely something worth exploring. Thanks for the tip!
Yeah, dimensions seem important though. I have found that you can't necessarily just take any cab and remove half the speakers. The result still needs to be de-tuned without any serious resonant modes in the resulting response. And this is certainly dependent upon the low end response of the particular speaker being used. So I have long wished that this could be easily modeled in some way. But getting IRs of some properly de-tuned cabs would be a great step forward!
 

toneseeker911

Inspired
I will likely be alone, and very dated, in this request. But,

2x15 Dual Showman cab with JBL E130's

There are probably better cabs. My underlying desire is for a smoother, more rounded
-- but punchy (105spl) JBL sound to add more Treble definition and solid Bass
to the very vocal, but easily-buried, G12H and G12M 55 HZ pulsonic-coned greenbacks.

I know the world has moved on. And, this is truly a quixotic request.

The big ported cab, ceramic instead of alnico, 15's instead of 12's
-- are all about rounding out and smoothing the JBL sound.
A Theile cab may make more sense.

I simply had an amazing sound, once, with a 2x12 Celestions in a Bassman cab
and 2x15 JBL E130's in a showman cab.

It could simply be a faulty sentimental memory.

I remember these two cabs together
as a very vocal, expressive and intensely present tone -- unusually so
when used with my Marshall.
Obviously, 2 together in the same amp
is not the same as each one done individually
and then added together.

The merged impedance curve may have been as important
as anything else.

I know this is dated and personal.
But, those are the specifics and that is the underlying concept.
It is very much a 60's thing -- ancient history.

But, 2x15 JBL E130's in a showman cab
might add some unique tone and dynamics to another more expressive speaker.
Have you tried the factory IR 2x15 Doubleshow ? That’s actually my go to IR for clean sounds, paired with one of the fender amps.
 

Postretro

Inspired
Have you tried the factory IR 2x15 Doubleshow ? That’s actually my go to IR for clean sounds, paired with one of the fender amps.
Actually, yes. The Doubleshow is a good IR. But, there is a difference between the alnico D130's and the ceramic E130's. Alnico's in general are more bell-like. The alnico's have a little more ring, clang, and chime to them. Not too unlike the blue alnicos and the greenbacks. Although, the JBL's are, of course, less colored. I have also tried Tyler Grund's E130 IR which is in ia open-back Vibrolux cab. It is also very good -- but very very dynamic. He created that IR to capture SRV's sound and pick attack. I have also tried Dweezil's IR's from Frank Zappa's old 4x12's and Super Beatle cabs. They are also great. But they are alnico D120 12" speakers which are brighter than the ceramic E130 15" speaker. I have also checked out the EV 12L's and SRO's and the old Altec 418's just in case they would do the trick. I am not sure but, I believe part of the magic (that I may be remembering in an overly sentimental way) is the shared impedance curve, and ohm mismatch, created by having two E130's (4 ohms) and two greenback speakers (8ohms) plugged into the same Marshall amp. As it stood the JBL's received 2/3'rds of the power and the Celestions received 1/3 along with an ohmage mismatch. So, I may not be able to easily recreate what I remember without mixing IR's. Although, I might go back and look for some JBL impedance curves to try that might be available in the FM3.
 

Shai`tan

Inspired
ElectroVoice EVM12L 200 watter in an upright Mesa 2X12 Diesel cab. And in a Theile Cab.
Bogner Cube 1X12 loaded with a real Greenback or Scumback m75.
 
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