Plexi Models Sound Dark - A different perspective (I tried EVERYTHING)

blackeye-liner said:
Primarily because there's no single place where I can find a reliably latest beta, other than varying forum threads.
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The latest is always stickied at the top of the FM3 Discussion forum.
blackeye-liner said:
This, because seems like this is my last resort. What's the best way to do it other than the option in the menu? Does it make any sense to do the "hold buttons while powering on" thing, or would that be similar?
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Backup your system settings with FractalBot.

Reset from the setup menu.
blackeye-liner said:
Honestly, I am not sure it's my unit problem, or it's an FM3 problem. I feel like if I do this on Axe-FX III it will be the same, but I know no one who owns one to try. I would if I could.
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Unless they have the same physical setup you have, they can't anyway. And their physical amp won't likely sound the same as yours due to component tolerances.

Maybe Cliff will see your post and offer input. I don't like to tag him since I'm sure he's overwhelmed with that ;)
 
Have you tried lowering the master volume in the axe fx sims, at least where applicable? JCM 800 at least gets pretty bright to my ears that way.
 
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blackeye-liner said:
Just installed 6.0 beta 3 with SV20 model in it.

Well, it also is extremely dark. I need to post audio recordings, because seems like you need to hear how bad it is.

Here are recordings of how same thing sounds through Studio 20 model and SV20H. IR is the same. It sounds like high cut is at 3000 Hz. I tried lowering it - no difference until 3000 Hz high cut. Recordings are made with high cut off (set at 40000 Hz):

Here's the actual SV20H amp: https://www.dropbox.com/s/psxrvim97gasqcq/221124 SV20H.mp3?dl=0

Here's the Studio 20 model: https://www.dropbox.com/s/1u7nm6ba4tqp924/221124 FM3 Brit Studio 20.mp3?dl=0
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At least here, the real amp sounds way, way better to me.
 
trancegodz said:
That's the difference you are hearing. It's the TAE making the differences you are hearing. Try a Suhr reactive load or x-load and see if you hear any difference.
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If TAE makes the amp sound this much better (to me at least), and this were to be due to impedance curve, I'd like to have that in fm3 for sure.
 
blackeye-liner said:
It's a Boss Tube Amp Expander, it's a reactive loadbox/attenuator.

BTW, both Two Notes and UA OX are also reactive, not resistive, but that's beyond the point.

I just tried doing what you and Michael R suggested above - looking into the Speaker section in the amplifier, and with LB-2 in extreme settings (High Freq at 600-800 Hz, HF Reso maxed out, HF slope less steep than it was), I was able to make it somewhat closer - but still, it sounds like there's a high cut, and it's pretty significant.

It seems like it's high cut that's stuck at "maximum 3000 Hz".

Specifically, the setting in Preamp section) seems to be set at max 3000 Hz for my unit. If I bring this high cut down from 40000 Hz, I hear NO difference until 3000 Hz. I.e. there's no difference between 12000 Hz high cut, 6000 Hz high cut and 3000 Hz high cut. Lower than 3000 - it's becoming even darker.
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Ah, I effed up with the load distinctions. What I meant was:

Reactive Load with Realistic Speaker (Cab) Impedance Curves: Fractal LB-2 etc.

Reactive Load with Unrealistic Speaker Impedance Curves: Two Notes etc.

Know that you told us that you're using a Tube Amp Expander, could you also tell us the Resonance Z and Presence Z settings that you're using on it? Do you use any other EQs, switches, on the TAE?

This site should tell you the cab the TAE models with specific Resonance and Presence Z settings (It's in The Boss Variable Load Advantge section):

https://www.boss.info/global/promos/waza_tube_amp_expander/

You can then try to look for a suitable Axe FX impedance curve that covers the same cab.

But, once again, the reactive load will always sound brighter than the Axe, because the Axe is aiming to replicate the real amp and cab interaction. With that being said, I do think that the current difference should be nowhere near as blatant as it is now...
 
without hearing what you're hearing, there's really not a lot we can do to help. upload some clips.
 
blackeye-liner said:
Just installed 6.0 beta 3 with SV20 model in it.

Well, it also is extremely dark. I need to post audio recordings, because seems like you need to hear how bad it is.

Here are recordings of how same thing sounds through Studio 20 model and SV20H. IR is the same. It sounds like high cut is at 3000 Hz. I tried lowering it - no difference until 3000 Hz high cut. Recordings are made with high cut off (set at 40000 Hz):

Here's the actual SV20H amp: https://www.dropbox.com/s/psxrvim97gasqcq/221124 SV20H.mp3?dl=0

Here's the Studio 20 model: https://www.dropbox.com/s/1u7nm6ba4tqp924/221124 FM3 Brit Studio 20.mp3?dl=0
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while those do sound different, I def wouldn't characterize the model as sounding "very dark"
 
km 202257 said:
TAE does not have an impedance curve like that of a real speaker - more like a OX or Two Notes. I had a TAE and measured the IC, which I posted on:
https://forum.fractalaudio.com/thre...pedance-curve-comparison.169430/#post-2343585
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I always assumed the TAE is in the Fractal and Suhr category of impedance curve quality. Good to know that this isn't the case at all.

What do their Z controls do? Do they control analog circuit elements that can change the effective impedance curve or are those just "EQ" shortcuts?
 
blackeye-liner said:
Just installed 6.0 beta 3 with SV20 model in it.

Well, it also is extremely dark. I need to post audio recordings, because seems like you need to hear how bad it is.

Here are recordings of how same thing sounds through Studio 20 model and SV20H. IR is the same. It sounds like high cut is at 3000 Hz. I tried lowering it - no difference until 3000 Hz high cut. Recordings are made with high cut off (set at 40000 Hz):

Here's the actual SV20H amp: https://www.dropbox.com/s/psxrvim97gasqcq/221124 SV20H.mp3?dl=0

Here's the Studio 20 model: https://www.dropbox.com/s/1u7nm6ba4tqp924/221124 FM3 Brit Studio 20.mp3?dl=0
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I don't speak Italian so no idea of the specific setup, but from the title this vid compares the real amp vs the new Fractal model, and the results are way, way closer than the clips you posted.

 
blackeye-liner said:
Just installed 6.0 beta 3 with SV20 model in it.

Well, it also is extremely dark. I need to post audio recordings, because seems like you need to hear how bad it is.

Here are recordings of how same thing sounds through Studio 20 model and SV20H. IR is the same. It sounds like high cut is at 3000 Hz. I tried lowering it - no difference until 3000 Hz high cut. Recordings are made with high cut off (set at 40000 Hz):

Here's the actual SV20H amp: https://www.dropbox.com/s/psxrvim97gasqcq/221124 SV20H.mp3?dl=0

Here's the Studio 20 model: https://www.dropbox.com/s/1u7nm6ba4tqp924/221124 FM3 Brit Studio 20.mp3?dl=0
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Listening to these on my setup, the FM3 definitely sounds dark in comparison and possibly lower volume as well.

There's multiple things to check here:
  • Make sure you don't have any global EQ enabled on the FM3.
  • Make sure the volume levels are matched. Just having the FM3 less loud sounds "darker" and "worse" to our ears.
  • Don't try to match the settings on the real amp and the amp model visually. There's often up to 20% variance between components like pots, resistors etc on a real amp so the SV20H model might be accurate to the real SV20H Fractal owns, but not to yours. It's better to pick a reference tone (your real amp) and try to dial the amp model to that without trying to match the knob positions.
I recommend also posting the settings you use on the Boss TAE. The reactive load settings could cause things like overly hyped high end and/or bass cut which you find preferable. You could try playing with the different speaker impedance curve settings in the FM3 model and see if that gets you closer.

My experience using my FM3 is that it's not dark for Marshall models.
 
So many great responses! I am so grateful for all of you guys for willing to help!

I think now it starts to clear up a little bit in terms of my understanding what happens. What has helped recently was to use LB-2 impedance curve - it clears up at lot.

I will try to respond to everyone, hope it doesn't look ugly to have a long reply.

Dimi Guitar said:
If TAE makes the amp sound this much better (to me at least), and this were to be due to impedance curve, I'd like to have that in fm3 for sure.
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Yes, it does sound that much better to my ear. It's called unrealistic in many of the replies, but if that's unrealistic, I will choose that. To get this exact sound in FM3, I did this EQ in the amp block (that's for Studio 20 model) - and it sounds almost indistinguishable from the real thing with a fairly bright IR (LT TV Mix 2 that Leon Todd posted on Axe-Change is an example, but there are many others built in like it):

Screenshot 2022-11-25 at 16.46.59.png

Joker said:
Know that you told us that you're using a Tube Amp Expander, could you also tell us the Resonance Z and Presence Z settings that you're using on it? Do you use any other EQs, switches, on the TAE?
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Yeah, sure. I use recommended settings for Brit Stack (4x12 Celestion Greenback). Everything else on the unit is deliberately turned off, IR processing, EQ, effects, switches, everything off.

Screenshot 2022-11-25 at 16.40.37.png

On lower Presence-Z settings it sounds very dark as well, but then it's hard to hear the sound and it's not exactly usable IMO.

Joker said:
What do their Z controls do? Do they control analog circuit elements that can change the effective impedance curve or are those just "EQ" shortcuts?
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Yes, they control analog citcuitry - you can hear relays switching every time you change settings on the front panel.

laxu said:
I recommend also posting the settings you use on the Boss TAE. The reactive load settings could cause things like overly hyped high end and/or bass cut which you find preferable. You could try playing with the different speaker impedance curve settings in the FM3 model and see if that gets you closer.
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This is actually what got me much closer.

So summing up, seems like what I was experiencing was a combination of two things:

1) Default impedance curve in the model, whereas LB-2 sounds closer to my preference
2) Boss TAE is bright - which I like, but it's something that needs to be taken into account

All that in conjunction gives me an opportunity to get 1987X tone that is very close to this video for example without any EQ, while I still need to EQ Studio 20 model somewhat, but not as dramatic as before.

Because it was two factors at once, I was getting such massive difference. Now need to spend more time with this setup to really understand it better.

BTW, Studio 20 model bass response is noticeably less than it is on the real thing, again - not critical, but the difference is there. I can hear it in this video, and it's the same experience I have right now.
 
FWIW I like to use a customized Austin Buddy JTM45 preset from his Live Gold pack for ABB-type Duane and Dickey tones.

Last night, after reading all the love for the SV20 model, I loaded 6.00 beta 6 and swapped out the JTM45 with the SV20, and wow, killer tones! The SV20 model dirt tones are nice and chewy, and seems to have plenty of bottom end to me (legacy cab 148). New favorite!

I tweaked the amp settings to taste, added a bit of output gain enhancement, and man just LOVE it, going to be jamming with a friend tonight who uses an HX Stomp, he gets some pretty good tones out of it but overall the FM3 tones are just SO much better. Can't wait. :cool:
 
blackeye-liner said:
Honestly, I am not sure it's my unit problem, or it's an FM3 problem. I feel like if I do this on Axe-FX III it will be the same, but I know no one who owns one to try. I would if I could.
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Would you share one of your presets? Or record a short clip?
 
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