Please help me with my levels - I'm spending way too much time with it

Hi All, please bear with me, I'm definitely in need of help with my levels on the FM3. Here is my config:

Tele (Fralin Blues Specials - single coils) --> FM3 Input 1 --> FM3 Output 2 (L) --> PS-170 (Duncan) --> Mojo Speaker Cab (Copperback, 12").

So, nothing too unusual. Fairly simple setup.

I feel like all I do is adjust levels in the amp, drive blocks and other FX blocks, setup values, output block...pretty much everywhere. It's driving me crazy trying to figure out what to adjust to get volumes somewhat close from scene to scene and preset to preset.

I must be doing something wrong. It can't be this complicated (or can it?).

Going from left to right in my config (above)....please tell me if what I have set is just plain wrong. I just can't get the volumes balanced across scenes and presets. I also wonder if I should take a different path to get this right?

  1. I have the level 2 knob of my FM3 set to max as the manual seems to indicate this is unity gain and it should be set this way. Level 1 is off as I'm NOT using it.
  2. I set the setup parameters as follows:
    1. Input 2 Mode: Sum L+R
    2. Output 2: Type: Unity Gain, Boost: 0dB, Phase: Normal, Mode: Sum L+R, Output 2 Copy: None
  3. Input Block - Threshold: -60db, Ratio: 2.00, Attack: 2.00ms, Release:100ms, Gate: Intelligent (Note: at these settings, the meter on the input block is at 0db all the time and the red light on the front panel occasionally blinks on - don't know if this is a problem?)
  4. Amp Block - This varies a lot by amp type. Some examples:
    1. Plexi 100W Jumped - Level is -14.3dB and it's still louder than other amps
    2. ODS Brilliant - Level is -7dB, not as loud as the plexi but way louder than any of the Fenders I'm using
    3. Texas Star Clean - Level is -1.8 dB - not as loud as either of the above two
    4. Super Verb Normal - Level is +10dB just to get it close to any of the above amps
    5. Question: Is this behavior to be expected ? If so, that's fine but it's very tricky to balance across presets.
  5. Output 2 Block - Level: 0.0dB - my meters on this page only show about -20dB if I play something like an open E chord. I keep reading about "tickling the red" but my output never gets anywhere close to the red...Is this an issue or should I ignore those levels providing I'm not clipping the output?
The Drive Blocks (and other FX blocks) have similar variances...

Am I doing something wrong? I watch YouTube guys snapping together a great sound in 5 minutes, I'm spending hours with this...Thanks in advance for your collective assistance. I'm not super sensitive, so don't worry about hurting my feelings LOL...thanks!!!
 
Hi All, please bear with me, I'm definitely in need of help with my levels on the FM3. Here is my config:

Tele (Fralin Blues Specials - single coils) --> FM3 Input 1 --> FM3 Output 2 (L) --> PS-170 (Duncan) --> Mojo Speaker Cab (Copperback, 12").

So, nothing too unusual. Fairly simple setup.

I feel like all I do is adjust levels in the amp, drive blocks and other FX blocks, setup values, output block...pretty much everywhere. It's driving me crazy trying to figure out what to adjust to get volumes somewhat close from scene to scene and preset to preset.

I must be doing something wrong. It can't be this complicated (or can it?).

Going from left to right in my config (above)....please tell me if what I have set is just plain wrong. I just can't get the volumes balanced across scenes and presets. I also wonder if I should take a different path to get this right?

  1. I have the level 2 knob of my FM3 set to max as the manual seems to indicate this is unity gain and it should be set this way. Level 1 is off as I'm NOT using it.
  2. I set the setup parameters as follows:
    1. Input 2 Mode: Sum L+R
    2. Output 2: Type: Unity Gain, Boost: 0dB, Phase: Normal, Mode: Sum L+R, Output 2 Copy: None
  3. Input Block - Threshold: -60db, Ratio: 2.00, Attack: 2.00ms, Release:100ms, Gate: Intelligent (Note: at these settings, the meter on the input block is at 0db all the time and the red light on the front panel occasionally blinks on - don't know if this is a problem?)
  4. Amp Block - This varies a lot by amp type. Some examples:
    1. Plexi 100W Jumped - Level is -14.3dB and it's still louder than other amps
    2. ODS Brilliant - Level is -7dB, not as loud as the plexi but way louder than any of the Fenders I'm using
    3. Texas Star Clean - Level is -1.8 dB - not as loud as either of the above two
    4. Super Verb Normal - Level is +10dB just to get it close to any of the above amps
    5. Question: Is this behavior to be expected ? If so, that's fine but it's very tricky to balance across presets.
  5. Output 2 Block - Level: 0.0dB - my meters on this page only show about -20dB if I play something like an open E chord. I keep reading about "tickling the red" but my output never gets anywhere close to the red...Is this an issue or should I ignore those levels providing I'm not clipping the output?
The Drive Blocks (and other FX blocks) have similar variances...

Am I doing something wrong? I watch YouTube guys snapping together a great sound in 5 minutes, I'm spending hours with this...Thanks in advance for your collective assistance. I'm not super sensitive, so don't worry about hurting my feelings LOL...thanks!!!
Start by reviewing p. 30 in the manual. Use Out 1, not Out 2.

I’d highly recommend experimenting with the factory presets as they’re designed for immediate use based on routing out using Out 1. You’ll need to bypass the Cab block. Turn up the volume until it’s stage volume for the best results. Look at the block level settings and use them as best-practice examples.

Beyond that attach your preset and the system backup to your question so we can poke around.
 
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Start by reviewing p. 30 in the manual. Use Out 1, not Out 2.

I’d highly recommend experimenting with the factory presets as they’re designed for immediate use based on routing out using Out 1. You’ll need to bypass the Cab block. Turn up the volume until it’s stage volume for the best results. Look at the block level settings and use them as best-practice examples.

Beyond that attach your preset and the system backup to your question so we can poke around.
I can’t use Out 1 - for two reasons - my power amp does not have an xlr input, and I currently have output 1 going to studio monitors.
Did you check out Chapter 7 in the FM3 manual? It describes a method for leveling presets, scenes and channels.

Also, the FM3-Edit app has a handy, built-in tool for Preset Leveling, located under the "Tools" menu.
I did but will go over chapter 7 again. The preset leveling tool is helpful when adjusting scene levels (at least it helps me) but preset to preset isn’t as easy.
 
Many good videos and info on this subject.
General rule is to use the Amp Level Parameter to balance preset levels across presets.



Yeah I’ve watched a number of his videos and have picked up a lot from them (Including this one). The approach he uses leveraging the channels has been a particularly useful approach for what I’m doing.
 
The preset leveling tool is helpful when adjusting scene levels (at least it helps me) but preset to preset isn’t as easy.
If you level the scenes within the preset then the presets should subsequently be easily leveled also.

Amp Block - This varies a lot by amp type. Some examples:
  1. Plexi 100W Jumped - Level is -14.3dB and it's still louder than other amps
  2. ODS Brilliant - Level is -7dB, not as loud as the plexi but way louder than any of the Fenders I'm using
  3. Texas Star Clean - Level is -1.8 dB - not as loud as either of the above two
  4. Super Verb Normal - Level is +10dB just to get it close to any of the above amps
  5. Question: Is this behavior to be expected ? If so, that's fine but it's very tricky to balance across presets.
The Amp models are very accurate and the default levels reflect their circuitry and design.

The Input Level and Master Volume controls affect the gain of the amp. If you’re adjusting them then you have to compensate for the change in the overall preset output somewhere, typically the Amp block’s Level control, but the Out block will do, or you can do it in the Cab block; remembering where you did it is the important thing. I’d recommend searching the Factory Presets page in the Wiki, and compare the sound and settings for those amps in the factory presets with yours. You might be changing something unnecessarily that is forcing you to compensate.

Amp Block in the Wiki is useful reading, as is Connections and levels.

Again, without the preset, we can only guess what you are doing and ask questions based on our guesses, and can totally miss whatever could really be happening.
 
Hi All, please bear with me, I'm definitely in need of help with my levels on the FM3. Here is my config:

Tele (Fralin Blues Specials - single coils) --> FM3 Input 1 --> FM3 Output 2 (L) --> PS-170 (Duncan) --> Mojo Speaker Cab (Copperback, 12").

So, nothing too unusual. Fairly simple setup.

I feel like all I do is adjust levels in the amp, drive blocks and other FX blocks, setup values, output block...pretty much everywhere. It's driving me crazy trying to figure out what to adjust to get volumes somewhat close from scene to scene and preset to preset.

I must be doing something wrong. It can't be this complicated (or can it?).

Going from left to right in my config (above)....please tell me if what I have set is just plain wrong. I just can't get the volumes balanced across scenes and presets. I also wonder if I should take a different path to get this right?

  1. I have the level 2 knob of my FM3 set to max as the manual seems to indicate this is unity gain and it should be set this way. Level 1 is off as I'm NOT using it.
  2. I set the setup parameters as follows:
    1. Input 2 Mode: Sum L+R
    2. Output 2: Type: Unity Gain, Boost: 0dB, Phase: Normal, Mode: Sum L+R, Output 2 Copy: None
  3. Input Block - Threshold: -60db, Ratio: 2.00, Attack: 2.00ms, Release:100ms, Gate: Intelligent (Note: at these settings, the meter on the input block is at 0db all the time and the red light on the front panel occasionally blinks on - don't know if this is a problem?)
  4. Amp Block - This varies a lot by amp type. Some examples:
    1. Plexi 100W Jumped - Level is -14.3dB and it's still louder than other amps
    2. ODS Brilliant - Level is -7dB, not as loud as the plexi but way louder than any of the Fenders I'm using
    3. Texas Star Clean - Level is -1.8 dB - not as loud as either of the above two
    4. Super Verb Normal - Level is +10dB just to get it close to any of the above amps
    5. Question: Is this behavior to be expected ? If so, that's fine but it's very tricky to balance across presets.
  5. Output 2 Block - Level: 0.0dB - my meters on this page only show about -20dB if I play something like an open E chord. I keep reading about "tickling the red" but my output never gets anywhere close to the red...Is this an issue or should I ignore those levels providing I'm not clipping the output?
The Drive Blocks (and other FX blocks) have similar variances...

Am I doing something wrong? I watch YouTube guys snapping together a great sound in 5 minutes, I'm spending hours with this...Thanks in advance for your collective assistance. I'm not super sensitive, so don't worry about hurting my feelings LOL...thanks!!!
One thing you might want to consider is how close tonally are these amps in your preset? Since you are using a power amp and cab (if I am understanding you correctly) I am assuming you are not using the cab block.

Are you using high and low cuts? Excessive low frequency can take to quite a bit of that meter real estate.

If your amp channels are close tonally, you might want to try downloading something like the Orban loudness meter. It is free and can take a usb signal from the fm3 (I use an fm9). It is an LKFS meter, so it is weighted in a way that is similar to how we hear. Play all for scenes and see where they fall. If you are using scenes, adjust the scene outputs on the out2 block.
 
Reading your post I get the impression your main source of confusion is that 'the numbers are so different from amp model to amp model'. (Simplifying here and not meant condescending at all).

That is perfectly fine though.
 
One thing you might want to consider is how close tonally are these amps in your preset? Since you are using a power amp and cab (if I am understanding you correctly) I am assuming you are not using the cab block.

Are you using high and low cuts? Excessive low frequency can take to quite a bit of that meter real estate.

If your amp channels are close tonally, you might want to try downloading something like the Orban loudness meter. It is free and can take a usb signal from the fm3 (I use an fm9). It is an LKFS meter, so it is weighted in a way that is similar to how we hear. Play all for scenes and see where they fall. If you are using scenes, adjust the scene outputs on the out2 block.
I am using high and low cuts. I am not using a cab block except where I am feeding the signal to my studio monitors from output 1.

Reading your post I get the impression your main source of confusion is that 'the numbers are so different from amp model to amp model'. (Simplifying here and not meant condescending at all).

That is perfectly fine though.
I think it’s more than that - I expect some variation between amp models. I am trying to determine an approach for balancing the volume across the presets considering every block, not just the amp, has levels that need adjusting.

I haven’t even tried to get fancy with multiple effects - mostly just drive, reverb, delay. I need one fairly clean tone as well for a few of the songs we do where I just play some chords.

Last night, I created a very basic preset - just Input 1 to Deluxe Reverb to Output 2. I set the gain way down on the Deluxe as I don’t want any breakup. It sounds anemic unless I crank the amp level way up. Maybe that’s normal and I just have to get used to it, I dunno…
 
One other question, as I'm rereading the wiki I'm finding a few more things to check - how important is it to set the Output Mode to SS Pwr Amp + Cab?

I'm using a SS power amp (PS 170) and a guitar cab/speaker.

Also, I'm still not 100% clear on whether I should use Line Level or Unity Gain for this application. Unity seems ok so I'll likely just leave it there
 
OP, leveling your presets with different FX\drives\amps is always going to be a process.

1. Spend a few mins leveling the presets a gigging volume
2. Add a null filter block that can add or subtract 2db (press\ long press) to adjust levels on the fly
3. Create the same preset where the levels are relatively low and one that are very high
 
Also, I'm still not 100% clear on whether I should use Line Level or Unity Gain for this application. Unity seems ok so I'll likely just leave it there

Quoting from the manual, page 108:

To use FM3 Out 2 in unity gain applications, such as when connecting to a tube amp or certain pedals, [...]
To use FM3 Output 2 for Line Level applications — such as when connecting to FRFR guitar speakers, studio
monitors, mixers, [...]

So in your case probably unity gain, as the PS-170 has its own pre-amp and expects instrument level. But just guessing here. Technical specs on the SD page are vague.
In the end it does depend on what level your amp expects -- and what sounds best to you.
 
One thing to keep in mind is the Bypass Mode set to 'Mute Fx In' can affect the overall level when a block is bypassed depending upon the Mix setting. For this reason, I use the 'Thru' mode on all but the Delay block which is one that doesn't have this behavior.

As far as leveling presets and scenes, I prefer to keep things simple. I use the 'Preset Leveling' tool and only adjust the Level parameter in the Amp block for the overall volume. The only other block that's ever consistently needed adjustment is the Drive block when wanting to have it unity gain and not a lead/solo boost.

Other effects and blocks are pretty much left at zero but there are occasional exceptions. A block/effect, like the Multitap Delay, Plex Delay or Reverb, may need to have the Level adjusted depending upon how the selected model/algorithm affects the overall volume.

I've found that by using this approach, scene levels pretty much take care of themselves. If a boost is needed, I'll use a Control Switch to manipulate parameters and blocks to get the desired result.
 
One other question, as I'm rereading the wiki I'm finding a few more things to check - how important is it to set the Output Mode to SS Pwr Amp + Cab?

I'm using a SS power amp (PS 170) and a guitar cab/speaker.

Also, I'm still not 100% clear on whether I should use Line Level or Unity Gain for this application. Unity seems ok so I'll likely just leave it there
Personally, I play mostly through SS pwr amo and cab and I don’t hear a difference. But use your ears.
 
Personally, I play mostly through SS pwr amo and cab and I don’t hear a difference. But use your ears.
Well, my ears suck...just sayin' - I can't always hear what others hear. Volume levels I can hear for the most part.

I have a few presets that I think will work for me tomorrow night, so I'll go with them. What is odd is that I spend time creating what I think sounds good, then come back the next day and wonder what I was thinking the day before...LOL, oh well....
 
Well, my ears suck...just sayin' - I can't always hear what others hear. Volume levels I can hear for the most part.

I have a few presets that I think will work for me tomorrow night, so I'll go with them. What is odd is that I spend time creating what I think sounds good, then come back the next day and wonder what I was thinking the day before...LOL, oh well....
Ear fatigue is a real thing, and something to avoid. Don’t EQ for an extended period, especially if you’re at stage volume, which is where you should be if you’re going to use the preset on stage. Walk away and do something normal that is quiet to let your ears and brain relax.
 
I read your first post and so far, everything is right.
i have the exact same setup - except how I level my amp:

because - you can’t use only the out 2 block to measure on how far you can can get because it clips way before 0db.
I have a fix for this: add an out 1 block in your grid, set its level to around -15db.
Then you can use the level tool and the out 1 level view to actually level your preset.
Set your amp level that you hit around 0db at the mentioned out 1 block - with this, you should hit unity gain at out 2 without clipping (because it’s level is around -15db).

i had to play around for months to crack this nut … I hope it helps!
Now, when I level my presets, I only have to look that out 1 is fine.
if it’s fine, out2 works also directly - around unity gain, no clipping and everything works.
i also have the SD PS170 btw
 
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