Pitch - Need Help

sprint

sprint

Axe-Master
Hi:

I was hoping that my Ultra would be able to do a 100% shift on single notes with believable results (shifted tone sounds like guitar). For example:
- Fixed Harmony.
- 1 Voice only (Voice 2 Turned turned completely down).
- Shift 2 steps.
- 100% Mix (shifted notes only).

Using this example with only pitch, amp, cab blocks active, the shifted notes I get sound totally "generated" and bad.

Am I missing something? Hopefully yes because one of the main reasons I got the Ultra was because I thought the Pitch effects would be so much better than the GT10 or GNX3000 ones I'd used before. So far, I don't see how the Axe betters these other units in this area (maybe not even).

Check out 4:30 in the video I mentioned in a previous post where he goes down a step through a digitech harmony man and the tone of the guitar is still maintained. That's what I'm looking for and hope to find in the AxeFx. viewtopic.php?f=12&t=6237
 
I just checked out the built in preset Down Full Step and it sounded OK. However, when I kill amp, cab, and effects to hear the naked pitch shifted tone it sounds very synthy. I mess with the pitch track, track adjust and pitch source parameters but I have to admit I could not get it to sound as good as the part of the video you mentioned.

FWIW, I thought many of the other Digitech sounds in the vid sounded synthetic too, but the fixed harmony down shift was impressive.
 
A couple of things that help:
for 100% use the fixed harmony
turn the hicut freq. down, This will remove some of the intermodulation effect
turn the tracking up (this is a trade off between latency though)
place the pitch block between the amp and cab.

Where the axe-fx shines is in its tracking. It tracks better than just about anything out there.
The pitch shifting sound quality does have a quicky kind of inter modulation effect when it is all alone.

But when played w/ an amp cab it can sound just great:

None of the the devices you mentioned can do this:
the harmony is playing a different melody than the fingered notes
http://www.javajunkiemusic.com/Audio/customshift2.mp3

Here is Dweezil playing eruption, he had the pitch shift down 2 steps at 100%
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiVV3sb36aY

That being said, I haven't been able to stand the Axe-fx pitch shifting down at a 100%. But I haven't been able to stand it with any pitch-shifter including the harmony man. It didn't sound that good when I played it. I think the video is masking some of the quirkyness.
 
IMO there is no perfect pitch shifter just yet. The AFX one is the best I've tried all in all. It's better than most at simple chords and that stuff , and it tracks nicely.

However, the quirkyness of pitch shifters isnt something bad for me, I use it to make interesting sounds, but for people who want to simulate dual guitars in harmony, there is some tweaking involved. But IMO the AxeFX gets there with some fiddling.
 
Pitch-shifting is impossible to do perfectly. It is not a linear, time-invariant process. It's a perceptual process. Doing it in real-time is even more difficult.

Shifting human voices is fairly easy to do and have it sound realistic. It is done routinely now, i.e. cartoon voices (South Park, etc.), and uses formant correction. But a human voice isn't nearly as harmonically complex as a distorted guitar.

The placement of the shifter can affect the sound quality (since it is not time-invariant). It will sound much different before the amp block as opposed to after. Also before or after the cab block can affect the sound.

Experiment with turning the tracking on and off and the tracking parameter.
 
Hi:

Thanks to the users who responded and to FractalAudio for the advice and commnets.

I was using the Pitch after amp / before effects with tracking on but was not using the hi-cut frequency as advised. Using it definitely makes a difference. Thanks for that.

It's still not what I'm looking for but as FractalAudio points out, and I agree, accurate generation of a pitch shifted distorted guitar tone is elusive and not likely available without spending a few k$ on a stand alone unit. I still have confidence that a noy perfect but better quality shifted guitar tone can be had within the Axe-Fx's capability. Maybe in an upcoming release.

In the mean time, I'm eperimenting with putting the pitchshift in a sidechain where it can be eq'd separately and then re-introduced into the main chain. This seems promising.

Again, thanks for the great advice which is one reason why I'm proud to own this box.
 
sprint said:
... but as FractalAudio points out, and I agree, accurate generation of a pitch shifted distorted guitar tone is elusive and not likely available without spending a few k$ on a stand alone unit.
Click to expand...

Thats not what was said. Even the standalone units, even the ridiculously expensive top of the line eventides dont do it perfectly. I'm sure you will find a sound that is more than adequate, and definitely in a mix, but perfect does not enter into pitch shifting in 2009.

That said, I have found that for one-voice, 100% mix pitch shifting, like tuning the whole guitar down a few steps, I've had the best luck when placing pitch before amp. Don't know why.
 
danielodland said:
sprint said:
... but as FractalAudio points out, and I agree, accurate generation of a pitch shifted distorted guitar tone is elusive and not likely available without spending a few k$ on a stand alone unit.
Click to expand...

Thats not what was said. Even the standalone units, even the ridiculously expensive top of the line eventides dont do it perfectly. I'm sure you will find a sound that is more than adequate, and definitely in a mix, but perfect does not enter into pitch shifting in 2009.

That said, I have found that for one-voice, 100% mix pitch shifting, like tuning the whole guitar down a few steps, I've had the best luck when placing pitch before amp. Don't know why.
Click to expand...

Yeah, when I was messing with it this morning before the amp was better, pitch tracking on, tracking set to ~6-7. It may have been my imagination, but it seemed like using both voices set to the same pitch shift sounded better than w/ one turned down.

That being said, I was able to instantly get a better sound from my gmajor. The only issue was WAY more latency. Tone wise the gmajor sounded more natural.
 
IMOHO, the best location in which to place a pitch shifter is often before a preamp, especially for single-note distorted solos. For years, my rig has included a Digitech IPS-33B harmonizer and three preamps. The dry signal runs through a Triaxis, the left and right shifted outputs each run through their own distortion preamp. With this method, the harmonics generated in the preamps are not shifted, creating a much more convincing tone.

I am considering the purchase of an Axe-FX, partly because this configuration seems achievable (at least it does in the editor when not connected to an actual unit) using an amp block and a parallel-connected pitch shift block feeding two drive blocks (one drive per voice), then combining the outputs of the amp and drives into a cab block. I am unsure however, if 32 global custom scales are enough (the IPS has 64). The manual implies that the global custom scales allow 12 custom intervals per octave (a different interval for every note of the chromatic scale). The local scales allow up to eight custom intervals per octave, but no mention is made about how the other four possible input notes are handled.

CC control of the pitch shifter voice levels would be great, as would CC control of the voice intervals (or more CC selectable global scales). The ability to use three or more drive blocks would save a lot of CPU in this setup as well, since the amp block could be replaced with a drive. The possibility of replacing my large, heavy, expensive, and marginally reliable (but great-sounding) rack with a single two-space unit has me very excited. Before I purchase an AXE-FX, I need to verify it can do what I need it to do.
 
steadystate said:
IMOHO, the best location in which to place a pitch shifter is often before a preamp, especially for single-note distorted solos. For years, my rig has included a Digitech IPS-33B harmonizer and three preamps. The dry signal runs through a Triaxis, the left and right shifted outputs each run through their own distortion preamp. With this method, the harmonics generated in the preamps are not shifted, creating a much more convincing tone.

I am considering the purchase of an Axe-FX, partly because this configuration seems achievable (at least it does in the editor when not connected to an actual unit) using an amp block and a parallel-connected pitch shift block feeding two drive blocks (one drive per voice), then combining the outputs of the amp and drives into a cab block. I am unsure however, if 32 global custom scales are enough (the IPS has 64). The manual implies that the global custom scales allow 12 custom intervals per octave (a different interval for every note of the chromatic scale). The local scales allow up to eight custom intervals per octave, but no mention is made about how the other four possible input notes are handled.

CC control of the pitch shifter voice levels would be great, as would CC control of the voice intervals (or more CC selectable global scales). The ability to use three or more drive blocks would save a lot of CPU in this setup as well, since the amp block could be replaced with a drive. The possibility of replacing my large, heavy, expensive, and marginally reliable (but great-sounding) rack with a single two-space unit has me very excited. Before I purchase an AXE-FX, I need to verify it can do what I need it to do.
Click to expand...

For the most part, the Axe-fx shifter worker best between the amp and cab (trust me I've extensively tested just about every combination). This is because the axe-fx pitch detection (unless set to local mono or local poly) gets its signal directly from the input for any effects processing. It is slightly different than your setup because of this.

I agree voice level and interval CC control would be really nice. I doubt you'll ever see 3 drive blocks though. you can control the interval through sysex commands if your foot controller is able to send longer custom strings. I'll check on the local custom scales. I've stuck to the global scales when using custom.
 
javajunkie said:
For the most part, the Axe-fx shifter worker best between the amp and cab (trust me I've extensively tested just about every combination). This is because the axe-fx pitch detection (unless set to local mono or local poly) gets its signal directly from the input for any effects processing. It is slightly different than your setup because of this.

I agree voice level and interval CC control would be really nice. I doubt you'll ever see 3 drive blocks though. you can control the interval through sysex commands if your foot controller is able to send longer custom strings. I'll check on the local custom scales. I've stuck to the global scales when using custom.
Click to expand...

I'm a bit confused. Although having a pitch detector sidechain at the input allows you to put the shifter after the distortion preamp and still maintain accurate tracking, I don't understand why I wouldn't get superior timbre by putting the shifter before the drives.

I've always found that (for me) putting a shifter before a distortion preamp yields a better result. Most of the harmonics are generated in the distortion amp, so why not shift the signal before these harmonics are generated to minimize timbre shift? The only reasons not to (for me) is that the setup is more complicated and it can introduce noise. Having a pitch detect sidechain like the Axe and old Digitech DHP-55 I used to use makes it tempting (and for that matter, even possible) to use the shifter post distortion, but I'd still like to try it pre-distortion in the Axe to see if doing so would provide the same benefit as my current setup.

I've never achieved the best results placing a pitch shifter after a preamp. When up-shifted, the signal sounds thin and mosquito-like. When shifted down, all the highs generated by the preamp are gone and I have to put the signal through an exciter (basically another distortion unit). All non-formant-preserving pitch shifters change the timbre of the signal when you shift. The greater the shift and the more harmonically complicated the signal, the worse the timbre changes. I'm trying to wrap my brain around why the Axe shifter would be different from any other.

I used the DHP-55 placed after the Triaxis with the pre-distortion signal as a sidechain. It tracked extremely well, but the harmonies sounded like a sampler playing well above or below the base sample. Using three preamps in my current configuration solved *most* of the problem. Would doing so with the Axe not present a similar improvement?
 
steadystate said:
javajunkie said:
For the most part, the Axe-fx shifter worker best between the amp and cab (trust me I've extensively tested just about every combination). This is because the axe-fx pitch detection (unless set to local mono or local poly) gets its signal directly from the input for any effects processing. It is slightly different than your setup because of this.

I agree voice level and interval CC control would be really nice. I doubt you'll ever see 3 drive blocks though. you can control the interval through sysex commands if your foot controller is able to send longer custom strings. I'll check on the local custom scales. I've stuck to the global scales when using custom.
Click to expand...

I'm a bit confused. Although having a pitch detector sidechain at the input allows you to put the shifter after the distortion preamp and still maintain accurate tracking, I don't understand why I wouldn't get superior timbre by putting the shifter before the drives.

I've always found that (for me) putting a shifter before a distortion preamp yields a better result. Most of the harmonics are generated in the distortion amp, so why not shift the signal before these harmonics are generated to minimize timbre shift? The only reasons not to (for me) is that the setup is more complicated and it can introduce noise. Having a pitch detect sidechain like the Axe and old Digitech DHP-55 I used to use makes it tempting (and for that matter, even possible) to use the shifter post distortion, but I'd still like to try it pre-distortion in the Axe to see if doing so would provide the same benefit as my current setup.

I've never achieved the best results placing a pitch shifter after a preamp. When up-shifted, the signal sounds thin and mosquito-like. When shifted down, all the highs generated by the preamp are gone and I have to put the signal through an exciter (basically another distortion unit). All non-formant-preserving pitch shifters change the timbre of the signal when you shift. The greater the shift and the more harmonically complicated the signal, the worse the timbre changes. I'm trying to wrap my brain around why the Axe shifter would be different from any other.

I used the DHP-55 placed after the Triaxis with the pre-distortion signal as a sidechain. It tracked extremely well, but the harmonies sounded like a sampler playing well above or below the base sample. Using three preamps in my current configuration solved *most* of the problem. Would doing so with the Axe not present a similar improvement?
Click to expand...

You can try it any way you like, the axe-fx is completely routable.
If you get it, try it. You'll see what I mean. It takes some of the edge off the upper harmoics which tend to be not as stable. Fractal also suggests it. I don't know about using three preamps, never tried it. I can do some clip examples later showing the difference..
 
I most certainly will try everything I can think of. Having 64 or even 128 global custom scales would make me more comfortable. I've already used more than 32 in my IPS. I play lots of covers, and getting exactly the right harmonies without custom scales is sometimes not possible. Hopefully, there is no discontinuity when changing global customs with a cc.

I'd also like to see more cc-capable parameters in many of the blocks (pitch voice interval and level, reverb level, early reflection level, etc.) Many of the parameters I control in my current rack are not available for cc in the Axe (yet). I'm sure time constraints and design considerations I am not aware of play a role in what is made available for cc manipulation.

I really want to try one though. I've tried GR3, Amplitube 2, and Revalver MKIII. They're good, but not good enough to replace my rack. The Triaxis Lead 1 (Boogie Mark 1) type of sounds especially seem absent from these products. None of the included models sound or feel even close. Thanks for the replies. I'd really like to know how the Axe handles the remaining notes of a scale not included in an Intelligent mode (local) custom scale.
 
steadystate said:
I most certainly will try everything I can think of. Having 64 or even 128 global custom scales would make me more comfortable. I've already used more than 32 in my IPS. I play lots of covers, and getting exactly the right harmonies without custom scales is sometimes not possible. Hopefully, there is no discontinuity when changing global customs with a cc.

I'd also like to see more cc-capable parameters in many of the blocks (pitch voice interval and level, reverb level, early reflection level, etc.) Many of the parameters I control in my current rack are not available for cc in the Axe (yet). I'm sure time constraints and design considerations I am not aware of play a role in what is made available for cc manipulation.

I really want to try one though. I've tried GR3, Amplitube 2, and Revalver MKIII. They're good, but not good enough to replace my rack. The Triaxis Lead 1 (Boogie Mark 1) type of sounds especially seem absent from these products. None of the included models sound or feel even close. Thanks for the replies. I'd really like to know how the Axe handles the remaining notes of a scale not included in an Intelligent mode (local) custom scale.
Click to expand...

You can't change global customs w/ a CC. You can switch from one pitch block to another and have 2 scales within one block. If you pan them l/r you can control the levels on each w/ a CC. either one is absolutely smooth though. I have all of the above modellers. The Axe-fx is better IMO. The Axe-fx's earliest models were based off the triaxis which Cliff used before creating the Axe-fx :D
 
The editor implied (or at least I inferred from the editor) that the global customs could be selected with a cc. Without an actual unit, knowing what the capabilities are is somewhat difficult. The manual only tells you so much.
 
About the local custom. From what I have been told it tries to find the closest not. This can vary depending on the notes you choose for the custom scale. You really don't want to be playing notes outside of the custom ones you select.
 
steadystate said:
I'd really like to know how the Axe handles the remaining notes of a scale not included in an Intelligent mode (local) custom scale.
Click to expand...

With the custom or any preset scales, non-scale tones produce the interval (interval, not note) you'd get by playing the nearest scale tone below that note. So in C major with a 3rd up harmony, playing chromatically from C up to C would cause the shifter to produce E F F F# G A Bb B C C C# D E.
 
Bakerman said:
steadystate said:
I'd really like to know how the Axe handles the remaining notes of a scale not included in an Intelligent mode (local) custom scale.
Click to expand...

With the custom or any preset scales, non-scale tones produce the interval (interval, not note) you'd get by playing the nearest scale tone below that note. So in C major with a 3rd up harmony, playing chromatically from C up to C would cause the shifter to produce E F F F# G A Bb B C C C# D E.
Click to expand...

thank you, that is a much better way of stating what I was trying to say.
 
Especially in high gain situations, you are probably going to want to put the harmonizer after the amp. The reason is intermodulation. Ever wonder why power chords sound so thick with distortion? It's because the distortion of the signal brings in traces of extra notes (specifically, the difference and sum of the frequencies involved). With a first and a fifth, this just produces more of the same notes and makes it sound awesome. But if you add in a third, or a seventh or whatever, the intermodulation starts to make it sound like crap. For this same reason, the harmonizer should go after the distortion -- because if you run it before, you're subject to intermodulation of the shifted voices. Maybe you would want this, but in general, I doubt it.

As to the whole quality of harmonizers thing, I have not used the Axe Fx Ultra ... but I've had Boss, TC, and Eventide harmonizers. The Boss and TC ones were basically junk because the tracking was not good enough. The Eventide had excellent tracking, but (especially with clean guitar) the harmonized voices sounded pretty synthy. I had an Eclipse which is one of their newer models ... so my guess is, that's the best pitch shifting available in realtime. Personally I felt that with enough distortion, chorus, reverb, etc. it sounded fine. Not sure how the Axe compares, but if the tracking's good that's mostly what matters for guitar.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom