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Pit gig in ears, no monitor, lead sounds

55bar

Inspired
Hi,

My regular gig is a theatre pit gig my set up is axe fx, and aviom rack, I get Stereo feed and I'm using UE 18 custom molds.

I have no other monitor in the pit and am finding the difference I'm getting when playing the axe fx through a cab (on other gigs) is vast.

Some people have talked about the "sympathetic vibrations" you get when a speaker is pointed at your pickups I agree this makes a huge difference.

Is there any way apart from having a cab in the pit, (which the sound designer doesn't want. That I can get a good (mainly lead sound) in my in ears?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.




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55bar

Inspired
Hmm not sure if I'd want to mod my guitar! What exactly does it do.... If that isn't a stupid question, is there anything in on the market that does this without a mod to the guitar?


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It sustains single (usually) notes (unless you have a hexaphonic sustainer like a Moog E1 guitar) using an electromagnet to pull on the string and keep it ringing. They often also have a mode that focus on a harmonic and rings that out instead. The are quite cool for lead work, but they are not super easy to install (they are very susceptible to interference, so you have to fiddle around to get things working well).

An EBow is a hand-held version of this technology that doesn't require modification of the guitar.
 

55bar

Inspired
Thanks, this is not what I'm looking for, axe fx is amazing but without a monitor in the pit I just can't get the lead sound anything close to when using a monitor. Maybe an EQ FIX?

Anyone?


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Jeries

Power User
Hmm not sure if I'd want to mod my guitar! What exactly does it do.... If that isn't a stupid question, is there anything in on the market that does this without a mod to the guitar?


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I wouldn't recommend it- just for a mimicking the physics of an amp in the room...
BUT- I have noticed I get that exact feel from it even when playing direct...

It allows infinite sustain on the guitar- on one string or all the strings- so with it on- I can hold a note for days, even chords/etc- it has a harmonic mode to basically make it feedback a harmonic overtone at any given point with the flick of the switch-

They're expensive, they're also very expensive to install-

NOW- I had one put in one guitar a while back- it then became my main guitar- its not a crutch but I don't like playing guitar without one- I really love it.
Part of the reason- is kind of what you're menioning- even if I'm not using it to its normal use- I always have it on when I'm playing because I feel like it gives my strings the push of standing in front of like a real fullstack blasting.

The ebow does a similar thing- but only one string- so it can't ring all the strings like you're in front of a giant amp and actually make it effect your playing

HEY HEY HEY!
I got another stupid idea-
Raise your pickup height really really really high- like too high-

The magnets effecting the area of the strings vibrating may give it a little more natural kick- idk-

The Fernandes works on all the strings at once btw- so you can ring out chords and whatever you want- once it hits its catch of whatever your playing-

I'll look into the moog though- never heard of it-
 

Erik Hammero

Inspired
I dont know if I understand you correctly but I got much better In Ear sound after I ran the monitor signal through the Axe Fx so I could use whatever effects (compressors, EQ...) I want to to make the In Ear sound better. Sorry if I'm answering on something else than you ask. :mrgreen
 

55bar

Inspired
Hmm thanks guys, my problem is simple, just plug your headphones into your axe fx and play a preset lead patch then unplug and play the same patch using a real frfr monitor or cab the difference is what I'm trying to eliminate, I can't have a cab in the orchestra pit as I'm sitting in front of a load of live strings miced up. Is there any way of improving the lead sound ONLY using in ears other than a sustainer or a cab?


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Jeries

Power User
just crank the gain more than you usually would on leads... throw some fuzz/pi type drive in it.

what you're complaining about lacking is something most guitarists would probably love to eliminate- and anything you would do- to get that feeling (besides more gain/drive) would probably negatively impact the performance/sound.

let your fingers control the guitar- not bouncing vibrations in the surroundings-

you don't want that- this isn't woodstock- it's a theater gig in the pit.

whatever you get pushing real air- more gain will get you 99% of the way there- and all this stuff- the people paying money to hear/see would never notice in a million years-
 

55bar

Inspired
just crank the gain more than you usually would on leads... throw some fuzz/pi type drive in it.

what you're complaining about lacking is something most guitarists would probably love to eliminate- and anything you would do- to get that feeling (besides more gain/drive) would probably negatively impact the performance/sound.

let your fingers control the guitar- not bouncing vibrations in the surroundings-

you don't want that- this isn't woodstock- it's a theater gig in the pit.

whatever you get pushing real air- more gain will get you 99% of the way there- and all this stuff- the people paying money to hear/see would never notice in a million years-
Hi thank you,

Firstly I'm not complaining just trying to figure out if there is anything that I'm missing, I'm aware that it NOT Woodstock but I play EVERY day of the week twice on matinee days, I'm just trying to make the most of a situation.

Why would most guitarists want to eliminate the sound of a cab giving the sound more life?


The sound of the axe fx through headphones is amazing but not close to a set up where I had a miced cab in the pit, I know this because all my career I've sat in pits with an amp and cab.

As tech progresses sound designers just love having control of the volume of the pit band so silent pits are getting more commonplace.

I'm sure if I had the tech knowledge/ears I could maybe EQ my feed?

I'll try more gain tonight see if that works.

Thank you again for you reply :)


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GiRa

Power User
Hi,
I you are just interested at having more harmonics and more (finite) sustain, I think that trying all the drive blocks will get you there.

You need to find a drive block which doesn't alter the main sound of your guitar+amp block combo. For me it's the BB pre. I know that the original has just some controls, I blindly used tone, drive, level, B, M, H to get more sustain without altering the character of the amp. It took me just 5 minutes or so.
 

pitmonkey

Inspired
Hi mate,

I think we've spoken about pit gigs before. I've been fighting with exactly this problem in pit bands for the last 10 years and, believe me, I totally sympathise. I've come to the conclusion that part of the problem is that iem's, no matter how good, never reproduce distorted guitars as pleasingly as when there is air between the speaker and your ears. I bought a pair of JHS13's after hearing Cooper Carter talk about them and they're great but tones that are warm & fat from the PA, or my Q12 still sound thinner & fizzier when piped through the aviom and into my ears.
On the sustain side I've found that adding gain only works up to a point as you have to remember that you're also affecting the FOH sound and before long the sound designer starts complaint that things are too distorted (depending on the context and what sound they're after). The music supervisor when I was on Wicked was fond of the phrase "less gain, more tone!". I've found the best results I've managed have been a combination of using a compressor at the beginning of the chain, then keeping the drive from getting too high in the amp block and possible using a low drive TS808 to drive the input of the amp block.

Sorry if that seems depressingly unhelpful but I do feel your pain dude! I'm actually just about to start programming some new patches for a tour I've just started and I'll be wrestling with this all over again. If you like I could send you one of my Wicked patches to compare and see what you think? They were pretty successful, I think but I did manage to convince the company to let me run my Q12 in the pit at bedroom level so I at !east had something moving air around me.

I'd actually love to hear what Cooper might have to say on this as someone who uses iem's exclusively. There are enough big players doing it that I can't believe they all just put up with the lack of warmth and sustain and get on with it....I hope!
 

FDB

Member
Something I do when I'm tracking single note legato leads with feedback, in a quiet room, is to put my headphones on my guitar's body. They resonate your guitar in the same way, sort of, that a loud cab does. It's cumbersome but seems to do the trick.
 

FractalAudio

Administrator
Fractal Audio Systems
Moderator
Yes, it's lack of acoustic reinforcement. I did a test a few years ago and I don't remember the actual numbers but having a speaker aimed at the guitar adds many dBs of power to the lower mids coming out of the guitar. IOW, if you measure the spectrum of the signal coming out of a guitar alone and then compare that to the signal coming out with a cab or monitor in proximity at a reasonable volume there are a LOT more lower mids with the speaker present. This results in a "thin" sound without the speaker.
 

pitmonkey

Inspired
Yes, it's lack of acoustic reinforcement. I did a test a few years ago and I don't remember the actual numbers but having a speaker aimed at the guitar adds many dBs of power to the lower mids coming out of the guitar. IOW, if you measure the spectrum of the signal coming out of a guitar alone and then compare that to the signal coming out with a cab or monitor in proximity at a reasonable volume there are a LOT more lower mids with the speaker present. This results in a "thin" sound without the speaker.
Ah, that's really interesting Cliff. Actually the most useful new information I've heard on the subject in a long time. So, bumping the low mids in the amp block eq might be worth a try...
 

fractalz

Experienced
Thanks, this is not what I'm looking for, axe fx is amazing but without a monitor in the pit I just can't get the lead sound anything close to when using a monitor. Maybe an EQ FIX?

Anyone?


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Is this just your IEM? Front-of-house is OK?

Maybe a different global EQ setting for the IEM?


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Patzag

Fractal Fanatic
Hi thank you,

Firstly I'm not complaining just trying to figure out if there is anything that I'm missing, I'm aware that it NOT Woodstock but I play EVERY day of the week twice on matinee days, I'm just trying to make the most of a situation.

Why would most guitarists want to eliminate the sound of a cab giving the sound more life?


The sound of the axe fx through headphones is amazing but not close to a set up where I had a miced cab in the pit, I know this because all my career I've sat in pits with an amp and cab.

As tech progresses sound designers just love having control of the volume of the pit band so silent pits are getting more commonplace.

I'm sure if I had the tech knowledge/ears I could maybe EQ my feed?

I'll try more gain tonight see if that works.

Thank you again for you reply :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Check with your sound man if you can have a super-moderate level cab with you and keep it close to your guitar. I have done this on gigs where stage volume was critical and the whole band was on ears. I work it out that I have a mini-wedge close to me where it does not significantly affect the other players but still gives back a bit of acoustic interaction between the guitar and the wedge. It just "felt" better.

From a sound perspective, you can use the global EQ and give your entire set a bit of a boost in the low mids. You can experiment using your earbuds until you feel your are mimicking the sound of the cab. It won't be the same but it should beef it up a bit.
 

FractalAudio

Administrator
Fractal Audio Systems
Moderator
Ah, that's really interesting Cliff. Actually the most useful new information I've heard on the subject in a long time. So, bumping the low mids in the amp block eq might be worth a try...
Maybe. The problem is that is a static approach. The low mid boost with a cab is dynamic. As you play softly there is less reinforcement. When you play harder the speaker gets louder and the mids are boosted more. It's a feedback loop. It's also the whole reason a guitar goes into controlled feedback.
 
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