Pick attack on cleans

J

joegold

Fractal Fanatic
Axe-FXII user here.
I'm very pleased with this piece of kit and have no plans to upgrade to the III yet, but....

I've always found the pick attack on any of my clean Presets to be markedly different sounding from what I hear through a real tube amp of a similar type to the one being modeled.
I actually held off on getting into a modeler until 2009 because it was the first time I'd heard a modeler do a convincing clean tone.
That was the Axe-FX Ultra.
I actually sold my Triaxis rig shortly after that because everything I could get out of that rig was easier to get from the Ultra.
I'm a jazz player mostly and the tones I need to coax out my rig are probably different than most of you.
And I'm quite happy with the Axe-FX cleans and have been for a long time.
But still I notice this one thing about the attack and it just makes me wonder either how to get it or why I can't.

It's a type of warm pop that happens on a real tube amp on the attack transients that's just not there with modelers or even my good ss amps like the Pearce G2rs I still own.
The attack on the Pearces is actually a bit more authentic sounding to my ears than the Fractal stuff.
But the Fractal stuff sounds better overall.
IIRC I also notice this "pop" when using just a tube preamp (e.g. Alembic) into a ss power amp.
But it's a long time since I've done that.

I've tried every parameter in the Axe's Amp Block to see if I can bring out this quality a bit more but nothing seems to do it.
I've always thought it would be related to more Sag, but increasing the Sag parameter on my clean tones seems to do nothing at all.
None of the Dynamic parameters (Depth, Presence, etc.) seem to help.
Neither does the Pick Attack parameter.
Frankly, many of those type of parameters on the fractal gear don't sound like they affect hyper-clean tones at all.
They all seem to be geared towards tweaking a more gainy tone.
Also...
When turning the Axe's pwr amp modeling off and just listening to the preamp model, the attack is not improved in the direction I'm after either.
So I'm not sure if this is a preamp or a pwr amp issue.

I've also tried placing a tube buffer (Valvulator) in front of the Axe's input, but it does nothing helpful in this regard.

What am I missing?

BTW I tend to stick with either the USA Clean or the DblVerb sims in the Axe.
But this thing I'm talking about is universal across all Amp Types.
 
i've never had issue with my clean tones, so i can't comment from a "something is wrong here's how to fix it" perspective.

i can only offer that volume matters. the speaker you're playing through matters too. there could be many variables that are changing this for you, so it's hard to suggest anything.

can you provide a video or recording of anyone playing guitar that has this "pick attack" you like to hear? we need to know what you are hearing/interpreting in order to comment on it intelligibly.
 
chris said:
i've never had issue with my clean tones, so i can't comment from a "something is wrong here's how to fix it" perspective.

i can only offer that volume matters. the speaker you're playing through matters too. there could be many variables that are changing this for you, so it's hard to suggest anything.

can you provide a video or recording of anyone playing guitar that has this "pick attack" you like to hear? we need to know what you are hearing/interpreting in order to comment on it intelligibly.
Click to expand...

I've got nothing at the moment but I'll try to dig something up online.
But most audio/video clips of a Fender amp being played 100% clean seem to have this thing I'm talking about in tact.
It's more of a feel thing to the player though than anything that would be easily heard in an audio recording of a mic'd amp.
There's just a warm "snap" to the attack.
I'm not sure it's even something I like about tube amps.
I'm much happier playing models of Fender amps in the Axe than I have ever been playing the real things.
It's just something that sounds different to me in modelers vs tube amps.

FYI
I'm using a GT1000 and 1 X 12 open back cabs with EVM-12Ls in them.
When I go FRFR I have a 3rd party 12L IR loaded into the Cab Block.
CAB-EU, I believe. Taken from a Music Man RD.
 
I'd suggest including some of your presets along with the tone you're aiming for and maybe someone can put you on the right path.
 
Hmm.
I ul'd 2 presets with my OP but they seem to have gone missing.
Just ul'd them again.
Hopefully they'll stay this time.

Edit: 3-1-19
I just realized that those presets I thought I included here were actually related to another thread I've started.
Consequently I've removed them from my OP of this this tread as they are mostly irrelevant.
Like I said, I'm quite happy with the sound of my Presets.
I have no desire to change or improve them per se, but I would like to see if I could mimic that "pop" I've been talking about.
 
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joegold said:
I've got nothing at the moment but I'll try to dig something up online.
But most audio/video clips of a Fender amp being played 100% clean seem to have this thing I'm talking about in tact.
Click to expand...

Well I just did a quick search at youtube and none of the clean Fender amp clips really successfully demonstrates the thing I'm talking about.
*I* can still kind of hear/sense it in these clips.
But *I* know what I'm listening for and it's not a real prominent feature of most mic'd examples of a tube amp anyway.
It's more noticeable to me on darker jazz oriented tones too than it is on brighter tones.
So I think the transients I'm sensing are probably in the lower frequencies than the higher ones.
But I'm just guessing.

Most recently I noticed it when I rented a DRRI because I have a steady gig where I have to use one and I've been unable to get a decent tone out of it several times now.
So I wanted to get more familiar with its controls.
(Turns out that all I needed to do was to use In 2 on the Rev channel and put the amp on an amp stand on that gig.)
But here at home, when I A/B'd it to any other clean amp sim in the Axe, it was real noticeable.
But I notice it too when I get out my old Mesa Simul-Satellite as well.

So, one of the other reasons for posting here was to see if anybody else on the forum senses the same thing I do.
So far, it would seem that I'm alone in this.

Like I said, I'm perfectly happy with my Presets as they are.
I'm not looking for ways to "correct" anything.
But if I could mimic this behavior more accurately, I'd definitely try it.
 
The absolute best way to demonstrate this would be posting two recordings, where one recording represents the “real” amp through an IR, and the 2nd one is the amp model through the same IR. This could demonstrate the (alleged) difference in the attack. Not arguing here. You might be right. Personally I don’t experience any issues in this area.
 
yek said:
The absolute best way to demonstrate this would be posting two recordings, where one recording represents the “real” amp through an IR, and the 2nd one is the amp model through the same IR. This could demonstrate the (alleged) difference in the attack. Not arguing here. You might be right. Personally I don’t experience any issues in this area.
Click to expand...
yeah. i think i know what he's talking about. but i'm not sure. and i feel like i experience it.
 
joegold said:
I'm using a GT1000 and 1 X 12 open back cabs with EVM-12Ls in them.
When I go FRFR I have a 3rd party 12L IR loaded into the Cab Block.
CAB-EU, I believe. Taken from a Music Man RD.
Click to expand...
joegold said:
Most recently I noticed it when I rented a DRRI because I have a steady gig where I have to use one and I've been unable to get a decent tone out of it several times now.
So I wanted to get more familiar with its controls.
(Turns out that all I needed to do was to use In 2 on the Rev channel and put the amp on an amp stand on that gig.)
But here at home, when I A/B'd it to any other clean amp sim in the Axe, it was real noticeable.
But I notice it too when I get out my old Mesa Simul-Satellite as well.
Click to expand...
Are you playing the Axe-Fx II and DRRI through the same cab when you compare them?
 
Joe, I've been reflecting on something like this as well, over the last week or two.
I just recently bought a wonderful thin line hollow body archtop instrument made by my dear friend Tom Ribbecke, after spending an afternoon at his shop, playing it thru his Princeton, w/ a Hemptone speaker. I was playing all kinds of stuff on it, over the course of the afternoon, and was thrilled with what I believe is that sound quality you're referring to, where each note "pops" with a punchy attack envelope.
Being jazzers, we tend to associate that quality w/ players like Pat Martino, who use EXTREMELY heavy strings... but this guitar was strung w/ 10's when i played. Tom happened to take this brief vid, which he posted on FB. I'm posting it here, in hopes that this has the quality you're talking about.
Anyway, now that I'm home, gigging it with my AxeFx (or sometimes, w/ my AX8) I'm not quite finding that same quality I liked so much. There are OTHER qualities that I find w/ my Ax patches, which I love... but that quality still eludes me.
Anyway... here it is. Are we talking about the same thing?
http://bit.ly/2NA4iwx
 
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joegold said:
Axe-FXII user here.
I've always found the pick attack on any of my clean Presets to be markedly different sounding from what I hear through a real tube amp of a similar type to the one being modeled.
What am I missing?
Click to expand...

Try setting the definition to -1.
 
Listen to the pick attack and percussiveness of the lead guitar in the intro to this track from Joe Bonamassa. Granted, the lead is crunchy, but is this the sort of effect you're talking about?

 
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