Petrucci Rig Patch

Hitoshi Kato said:
Hi @My name is mud, do you know what is the key difference in the structure/scheme/engineering between red and yellow channels (e.g. taper, condenser, resistance value etc)?
Also what is the expected sound difference from the structure/scheme difference?
I know yellow and red has different gain in AXE model but what is the potential difference?

I also asked almost same thing here.
https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/jp2c-model-wow.160928/
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John say that they are “the same” but we are a few real users that notice that the “yellow”, also ch2, sound more mid scooped than channel 3 at same settings .
 
My name is mud said:
They always use this shitty “ears not eyes” to escape, but every firmware update is about super accuracy from hell you know, where the most small component is reproduced but not the BIG knobs in the front panel of the amp 😅
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you know, I've always accepted this 'reason' until the last stream of 'they all sound the same' posts, where Cliff explicitly mentions he set the knobs the same as the amp because the purpose is to 'show the accuracy of the model'

I guess that doesn't extend to the EQ faders
 
phil92 said:
you know, I've always accepted this 'reason' until the last stream of 'they all sound the same' posts, where Cliff explicitly mentions he set the knobs the same as the amp because the purpose is to 'show the accuracy of the model'

I guess that doesn't extend to the EQ faders
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Yes and same for tubes . Before he said that changing tubes don’t change nothing and then he does an update with 10 new tubes.

Changing your mind is not a problem at all , we are all like that. The problems are the fanboys that drink his speech like sacred wine and then talk like him in the forum to everyone. Some guys answers to newbies like they are cliff you know, it’s always amusing. They use the same words and sentences . Disciples 🤣.
 
My name is mud said:
Yes and same for tubes . Before he said that changing tubes don’t change nothing and then he does an update with 10 new tubes.

Changing your mind is not a problem at all , we are all like that. The problems are the fanboys that drink his speech like sacred wine and then talk like him in the forum to everyone. Some guys answers to newbies like they are cliff you know, it’s always amusing. They use the same words and sentences . Disciples 🤣.
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I think the point about the power amp tubes was that 'they don't have a specific sound' in and of themselves, the audible difference is being caused by, IIRC, bias and transformer match/mismatch
 
I have to agree with wanting the 5 band eq to sound like the real deal. We're suppose to be trying to mimic the real amp, why not do it right. As someone else already stated I'd love to keep the eq we have now as "ideal" 5 band eq.
 
@axes yes this is the problem. How can you set by ears something that you never tried for real?
So you have doubt with accuracy whatever you try and don’t know for real.
Maybe the “ears not eyes” should be replace by “built your tone and forget the brands” but you remove a part of the dream, having a collection of amps you cannot buy . And don’t say that most of us don’t have bought the axe because it models dream amps and brands, not just to built our tone.
By the way the amps are all close to the real deal normally and sound better than the other modelers . But there is always a doubt . For example I found differences to all the real gear I own and the sim in the axe (jp, ds1, precision drive … to name a few) and they got all an update after saying it. So Cliff is cool, sure.
 
Hey everybody, apparently my post got deleted. I was a little out of line, sorry about that, I'll try not to bicker from now on.
My point still stands, though - I believe the topic of the authenticity of amp controls is still an important one and while I can accept that for some it's not something to get hung up on, I really like going by artist settings to get as close as possible.
 
Your desire would mean that Fractal Audio would have to have personal access to every single amp of every artist to measure each knob individually because their taper differs. How far do you want to take this? Would you like to have a model of the amp used at a show on 12/2/2018 because you have a photo of the settings? If the artist plays a different amp from the same series two days later, do you want another specific model?
The available settings of the fractal models are suitable to adjust any sound you are looking for. The ideal controls are just as suitable as the authentic ones.
 
is9582 said:
Thanks for sharing. One question, I noticed the cab block channel for the non-clean scenes has a different reference (User2 vs User1) for slot #1 & #2, from that for the clean scene. Are you using the same two IRs for those two slots on all four scenes? I have the York Mesa 412 V30 IRs, so just wanted to make certain the cleans will sound as much like you dialed in.

Cheers,
Lee
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Sorry that was an error in the preset. I use the same IRs for the clean tone - please change to Channel A in the cab block for the clean preset.
 
As I understand it, the controls on the Authentic page are matched to the controls on the real amp. I seem to remember this not always being the case (maybe a very old firmware or perhaps it was even the older generation fractal devices that behaved differently to the controls on the real amp). That said, it must be either matched to Cliff's specific reference amp or some sort of average value of how the amp behaves as there are tolerances in the parts and pots differ in their range and response from amp to amp.

The Mesa 5 band eq sliders in the Axe FX are linear and not logarithmic like the actual amp. I am sure that Cliff has posted a bunch of times that he was not interested in having a logarithmic taper for the Axe FX sliders because you get more precise control and range out of the current set up, and that any settings on the real amp can be achieved on the Axe by using ears and not eyes.

If it was not too much trouble, I for one would be interested in having an authentic mode for the Mesa 5 band eq in the Axe FX as an option, but am also very satisfied with the current set up and would not want to ever lose that. I thought that the JP2C in the Axe FX may have been modeled on one of John Petrucci's personal amps? He would need to get that amp back perhaps to do measurements, or base it off another instance.

I wonder, in general, if the taper is similar across different products like the JP2C, Mark IV etc. If so would you have just one generic eq based on one of the amp types for use across all amps? Or model a bunch of the tapers? Would you need to model the Dynamic Voice for a Triaxis for completeness, although I have heard the tolerances there are all over the place? Bit of a rabbit hole, and starts to get a bit silly when you can achieve the same effect and more with the current setup I guess.
 
No, the actual JP2c is made with one he purchased in reverb after I told him many times that the shred mode wasn’t accurate . and then we have the update.

@holgar …
A difference in 5/10% in knobs is not the same difference between logarithmic vs linear.
You cannot reproach us wanting realist knobs when you buy a product from a guy who…. Models transistors ! Thank you
 
I am also the guy who said that they are troubles with the darkglass and the precision drive . You know the one fixed this Month 🙄.
I don’t want a medal hm. Sometimes I admit I m maybe too much “non filtered” , but I rarely say wrong things in the end . So if you are not interested in our wish, like I m not interested by a klon centaur, feel free to read another topic 3C7B267D-2734-4474-9CA5-91BD8BBDF790.jpeg3FEBFE08-9613-4AE2-A44C-957C3C5333BA.jpeg
 
VidarAus said:
Sorry that was an error in the preset. I use the same IRs for the clean tone - please change to Channel A in the cab block for the clean preset.
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No worries. I knew that was a possibility, but when I saw there was a slight difference in the levels between slot 1 and 2, comparing the two channels, I thought it was perhaps intended. I pointed both channels to the same IRs you specified for slot 1 & 2, and it sounds good. I’ll change the clean preset’s cab block to channel A later, and decide which sounds best to me. I’m really enjoying your preset. Thanks for the updated info, and once again for sharing!
Cheers,
Lee
 
phil92 said:
I think the point about the power amp tubes was that 'they don't have a specific sound' in and of themselves, the audible difference is being caused by, IIRC, bias and transformer match/mismatch
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yep and nobody understood it seems still .What he really said was he changed the hardness, frequency response , distortion curve this is there on forums since ages ago in different threads, And the changes one hears on real amps arise out of the mismatches , which are not replicated on axe since its not necessarily the right way.
My name is mud said:
The problems are the fanboys that drink his speech like sacred wine and then talk like him in the forum to everyone.
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Why would you have a problem with that.

There will also be people who think why you or i talk like how we do in the forums is problematic, because they look at things differently.

Just like how cliff’s b7k pedal had issues and was faulty which led to the inaccuracy in modelling , it could be possible that xyz gear of some people on the forum is problematic, and what their feedback is biased due to it, tube amps across all production models can lack consistency arising out of various reasons.

Fanboys become fanboys due to a reason of being able to achieve what they want with unit in many cases after following Cliff's advice. While others are struggling with the same thing, no one would be a fractal fanboy without a valid reason.

End of the day a person is more likely to believe cliff over you,me or anybody else in this forum cause he’s the guy who’s made it all possible if we have a couple amps he owns all the 200+ amps and pedals in this unit for real, so if he said something and others regurgitate that without understanding its their bad yes, but it still got a higher probability to be true and more accurate(some exceptions aside of course where oversight can cause some errors in judgement which are due to faulty units or other errors ) than someone who is saying things out of personal experience on a limited gear ,

So yes regular feedback/review on accuracy of modelling needs to be done completely with you on that.

EOD some people learn more new things because they are open and learn things they dont have experience of, while some others are limited by their own experiences.


People tend to form the complete opinion on the basis of their own ears (which are really the most variable aspect as everybody hears differently) and dislike getting after the math behind the tone. But eod even the analog circuit in the real tube amp is nothing but math and rather you have extremely limited control on it unlike here.
 
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holgar said:
Your desire would mean that Fractal Audio would have to have personal access to every single amp of every artist to measure each knob individually because their taper differs. How far do you want to take this? Would you like to have a model of the amp used at a show on 12/2/2018 because you have a photo of the settings? If the artist plays a different amp from the same series two days later, do you want another specific model?
The available settings of the fractal models are suitable to adjust any sound you are looking for. The ideal controls are just as suitable as the authentic ones.
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clearly not. I am also not bothered by the Soldano model not going to 11 or the Bassman not going to 12, but this is about logarithmic tapers (on the amps) vs linear (in the axe FX). That's a big difference.

I can live with this difference, but the addition of an 'authentic' Mark type 5 band EQ would be awesome.

We have other 'inferior' stuff modeled in teh Axe FX as well: spring reverbs, tape echos...
 
Gl4th said:
Here are some Petrucci settings from the amp manual and the signature wha. The amp is a great model, so you can easily replicate.

View attachment 95628


And the wha.
View attachment 95629
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I tried these amp settings yesterday afternoon running into my Matrix GT1000FX and Suhr PT15 2x12 and next thing I knew 4 hours had passed. I've never played through a real JP2C so I can't compare, but man I had a blast and I LOVE the tone.
 
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