PERFECT PITCH ?

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I take 3-4 hours to set intonation on my guitar, and leave frustrated that it's still only 'close'

Tuning takes me about 30-60 minutes at times (like if I want to record), as it drives me F*CKING NUTS OUT OF MY MIND!!!! I have to tune, and then fine tune, and try to balance the tuning to chords....and then I have to try to maintain an even pick attack, which is VERY difficult, as I am a very aggressive player, and I like to play the HELL out my instrument! ;)
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You may want to check the Peavey AT-200 or the Parker MaxxFly Autotune guitars (see their respective websites and Youtube). They claim the guitars are always in tune and in perfect intonation thanks to the Antares Autotune technology, regardless of the "physical" tuning of the strings. Just a thought, I don't want to drive the post off subject :)
 
This video has Benjamin Zander, talking about music and passion. In it he touches on pitch and no one is tone deaf. I just remembered seeing this video sometime ago and thought it worth adding to the post.
[video]http://www.ted.com/talks/benjamin_zander_on_music_and_passion.html[/video]
Very entertaining video.
 
You may want to check the Peavey AT-200 or the Parker MaxxFly Autotune guitars (see their respective websites and Youtube). They claim the guitars are always in tune and in perfect intonation thanks to the Antares Autotune technology, regardless of the "physical" tuning of the strings. Just a thought, I don't want to drive the post off subject :)
No problem on driving the post off subject. Autotuning guitars are relative to pitch and may be perfect for some. :) GAS alert for those looking at these guitars. 8)
 
IMHO someone that has "perfect pitch" has a handicap when compared to someone that has perfect relative pitch.

Given the same "perfect" reference, they hear things identically (perfect pitch does not mean better hearing) and those that have perfect relative pitch can be just as irritated when things are out of tune. When the reference is changed, one will adapt and the other will hear things out of tune.

Guthrie Govan talks about this in one of his books (and I think I've seen him talk about it in a video but I can't find it right now). One *theory* is that everyone is born with perfect pitch. Then the smart kids (his words) develop relative pitch.

I think you nailed it there. Everyone has it....like I said in that long arsed post, my current keyboard player/sampler guy used to play guitar in another band, and his ears were HORRIBLE!!! After some time and working with him, he started hearing what I was hearing, and developed a good sense of perfect pitch, relative pitch, and an ear for production and that 'refined' sound.

He also complains all the time about it...he always wished he had it, and now he wishes he didn't. It has become a hindrance for him, in much the same ways I described. We both have pretty good relative pitch, but knowing what a note is SUPPOSED to be often takes precedence in the mind for some reason. I cannot explain it.

Guthrie had it right - if you're a smart kid, try to develop relative pitch.

If you want a lifetime of frustration and never being able to truly enjoy music, go ahead and try to develop perfect pitch - it can be learned - look at my keyboard player for eg.....but I'm warning you - it will likely leave you bitter with regret when you hear what you have been 'missing'. For eg - the clips that adam, cliff and m@ posted over the last day or two were AWESOME! BUT - the guitars were out of tune....they were tuned up, but I could hear them slightly off tune, and it grinded my ears like fingers on chalkboard. No disrespect to them - they're great players and totally awesome!!! But I'm showing you guys how something that we look at enjoyable can easily turn sour because of a so called 'gift'.
 
Joe Zawinul had perfect pitch. I read an interview with Randy Bernsen once and told a story about Joe. "once a spoon dropped, Joe said: "that's in Bb"

Unfortunately I don't have perfect pitch but a fairly good relative pitch. Near perfect when it was time for exams. This proves to me that you can train it to (near) perfection.
I think it's more important to work on your rhythm now. Perfect rhythm is what I aim at. You can play the best licks but if you don't time or phrase it right it sucks.
 
If you want a lifetime of frustration and never being able to truly enjoy music, go ahead and try to develop perfect pitch

Huh? No problem enjoying it, and if it pains you it is your relation to your ability that is the problem. Psychology, not pitch. No offence! :) You say you don't have it "developed"...and that a keyboard player friend with terrible ear developed perfect pitch? Are you sure we're talking about the same thing? The ability to immediately hear what notes are being played - hearing their "color"?
 
Yes. There are different hearing abilities....perfect pitch is the ability to tell a note or 'color' as you put it. Relative pitch is the ability to tell the interval between notes.
To be honest, I haven't met one person yet who has 'enjoyed' it...they all say pretty much the same as I did. Mine is not fully developed....for eg, I still have trouble telling some notes...like Ab I could never get for some reason. Sometimes I am also wrong - for eg, when listening to rich synth sounds (eg pads), it's sometimes hard to pick out tones.....the overtones are more complex than usual. Picking them out on a piano is easy. Guitar is a little harder. There are different levels of perfect pitch, just like there are different levels of reading, or different levels of fitness. Some people can tell A = 440Hz, and when A = 439 hz and some can just tell when it's near. Different levels.

It's all the same crap tho - just makes you miserable and not enjoy music as much. It's like trying to drive a mercedes when all the bearings are bad. You're supposed to be enjoying the ride, but all that enters your mind is just squeaking and heavy rolling. VERY distracting.
Again, I haven't met anyone yet who has it who doesn't have the same issues.
 
also, as for my buddy learning it, even with a terrible ear, there are many cases where people have learnt it. It's the same as when you get into production - you're listening to a full track with your producer buddy, and suddenly he stops it and hurls curses - you ask 'what's wrong'?!? And he looks at you indignatly and goes 'didn't you HEAR THAT??!?! That mic noise on the kick drum!!!'
Suddenly, you're more attuned to it.....you suddenly start to 'hear' these things....you start to hear what jitter is..you start to hear all the little clicks and pops......same with perfect pitch - if someone tells you what to look for, it becomes obvious. It's more of a subtle thing tho...you have to relax and just 'hear' it.....don't TRY to hear it, or you'll never hear it. That's hard for guitarists to do tho :lol
 
I think it's more important to work on your rhythm now. Perfect rhythm is what I aim at. You can play the best licks but if you don't time or phrase it right it sucks.
Absolutely! I'd go further and say that I think rhythm is THE NUMBER ONE most important element of music. Time and rhythm is what holds music together. Music lies on a measuring tape of time/rhythm. Without it it's just attractive noise, like wind chimes. You can play any notes, but if you play them in time and with deft and accurate rhythm those random unrelated notes can turn into great music.
 
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Totally agreed. There's lots of great percussion-only music that just emphasizes how important rhythm is
 
Yeah, I'm not convinced we're talking exactly the same thing. I don't think it's possible to so quickly turn a guy who has a terrible ear into perfect pitch just by pointing things out. You can improve his awareness of frequencies. But perfect pitch? Nah, I don't think so.

I have great ears. I can hear when things are out of tune by micro fractions. It COULD drive me crazy if I let it. I decide it's not that important. And I have great relative pitch. I can hear certain frequencies, like a guitar. I can always hear the low E. A is on. I can always hit a pitch by a fret or two. But I don't have close to perfect pitch. If I hear a solo or a melody I can see it on the fretboard and be reasonably close.

I'm not saying you don't have perfect pitch. I'm sure you do. But there's a difference between hearing something is out of tune and PP.
 
It's all the same crap tho - just makes you miserable and not enjoy music as much. It's like trying to drive a mercedes when all the bearings are bad. You're supposed to be enjoying the ride, but all that enters your mind is just squeaking and heavy rolling. VERY distracting.
Again, I haven't met anyone yet who has it who doesn't have the same issues.

Then we have very different experiences. PP runs in my family, and I've met plenty others that have it. Enjoying music with different reference pitches is not a problem 8) Of course, fluctuating pitch and bad relative pitch can be painful...but PP doesn't by itself limit a person to one tolerable reference pitch. If it does, I say investigate into why :)
 
There are courses and books and tapes that teach you how to do it. It's not something new. You already HAVE it in you, it's just latent. If someone points out what to listen for, you get sensitized to it.

Don't take my word for it - the internet is full of information, which will tell you pretty much the same thing I have.

Hearing something as out of tune is like the most basic concept of relative pitch - you can TELL it's out of tune. Some people can't tell if a string is down a step - I worked with a guitarist like that once - tone deaf they call it. He didn't know whether a string was out of tune or not! :eek: Totally tone deaf! And then there are some guys who can tell that a string is a microtone off - your ears have become sensitive to it.

For eg, there was a thread where we were all discussing 'fizz'. Some people turned on and off the parameter, and couldn't tell the difference. To some of us, it was blatantly obvious. Different LEVELS of listening.

Take another eg - some guys mentioned on this thread that they could tell some notes - that's some raw 'perfect pitch' at work - they can TELL that a note is B or G or whatever. If they listen closely enough, they might be able to tell G#, and E and C, and whatever else. It's the infant stages of it. My gf has advanced PP - she can tell a note even if it's a thick synth note - I can't do that always. Sometimes I hear it, sometimes I don't. Different levels.

Again, it's all about LISTENING - something guitarists don't like to do - we like to only listen to ourselves! :lol
Take for eg nikki and cliff - I'm almost sure that they have it, or can develop it if they listen a little - they have achieved a level of listening, and it is evident when they post some of the descriptions of what they hear. They have learned to get 'inside' the sound. In a similar way, PP is about getting 'inside' the note....and then you hear that the C note has a vibe going on.....and the E sounds dark, and the F# sounds twangy. But it's at different levels in different people. There was a thread where myself and nikki described pick attacks, and we were immediately condescended - shut up n play yer guitar they said - so I did! ;) But we were able to hear something in the sound...something VERY subtle. The note 'colors' are the same - they'e VERY subtle. Sometimes I make mistakes - I don't have it fully developed, and I don't want it to be either. My gf has it quite developed, but even she makes mistakes occasionally, sometimes ones that I pick up on....but we both have a pretty high level of accuracy.

Timbre makes a difference - it's why piano notes are easy to pick out, but guitar notes are a little harder. I can tell C on the piano EASY. But C on the guitar? I might have to let it settle in my ear for a second.

But again, don't take my word for it - the internet is full of very similar stories if you think I'm lying :lol Read up some more and tell me what conclusion you come to ;)
 
I know it's nothing new. I've had students who tried that one famous course in back of music magazines that train you color relationships. It all seems so useless to me, unless your ears are really bad. Seems like wasted hours to me. Time better spent practicing.
 
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Then we have very different experiences. PP runs in my family, and I've met plenty others that have it. Enjoying music with different reference pitches is not a problem 8) Of course, fluctuating pitch and bad relative pitch can be painful...but PP doesn't by itself limit a person to one tolerable reference pitch. If it does, I say investigate into why :)

Just saw this....point totally taken of course. I think it frustrates me because I am a perfectionist, and also come from a production side of things - I listen to things intently, be it the 'color' of the note, or the buzz in the snare that rang out a second too long. That makes sometimes for a miserable listening experience, as I'm always hearing things that I shouldn't as an average listener - I should just close my eyes and enjoy the music.

Perfect pitch WAS a bit of fun at times to be honest....but as it inevitably advances into a different level, it becomes more miserable than anything. It's fun sometimes to be able to pick out a tune that you hear on the radio in front your friends, or be able to improvise 'free bird' even though you only vaguely know the song at a gig, but it gets to be more of a burden.

Everyone's experience is different tho, but I still recommend RELATIVE pitch over perfect pitch. The former helps me to work out songs, the latter quite frankly just makes me kinda miserable as a listener :(
 
Jon - again I think you're talking about something else. Good relative pitch like my buddy who can tell you what note you're playing. But he references Beethoven's 5th and counts the intervals from there. Or me who can always hear certain notes, but I'm too lazy to count intervals

. People who have PP just know what the notes are. They don't figure it out. They don't relate notes to another to figure out the pitch. It's not so much whether pitches are out of tune or not. It's KNOWING what pitches the violinist, pianist, cellist, guitarist is playing. SEEING them in whatever way they see them. Yes, some say certain pitches are confusing for one reason or another.
 
No, I'm talking about I wake up in the morning, and play a note and know that it's an E. That's perfect pitch.
Relative pitch is like humming beethoven's 5th to get a gauge of where you are.
Everyone (unless tone deaf like my guitarist buddy) can tell if a pitch is off or not...that's RELATIVE pitch. PP is knowing that the note is a C, without knowing the other note that it's out of tune with.

I understand what you mean and where you're coming from, but understand where I'm coming from too - these things are at different LEVELS in people. Some people can only hear a B, some can hear all 12 notes. The colors are obvious to some, and to some, it's fuzzy.

Lemme put it another way: I'm a little color blind. I can tell red and green and all that. No problem. But a light green and a light yellow? Man, I'd be staring at that all day! :lol
Some people hear the 'colors' a little. Some hear them clearly. Some are tone deaf, some have perfect pitch. Same thing, but different LEVELS ;)
 
Perfect pitch WAS a bit of fun at times to be honest....but as it inevitably advances into a different level, it becomes more miserable than anything. It's fun sometimes to be able to pick out a tune that you hear on the radio in front your friends, or be able to improvise 'free bird' even though you only vaguely know the song at a gig, but it gets to be more of a burden.
LOL. Once again I'm not sure what you're saying. I've been able to do that since high school, and I'm well beyond HS now! I've always been able to pick out a tune on the radio and jam to it. That's not PP.

Look, I'm not interested in invalidating your abilities. I just am interested in knowing that we're talking about the same thing. Finding a key quickly and jamming, finding the quality of the chords instantaneously or the chord movement, following a melody with minimum to no mistakes, playing along to a song you've never hard before, are all good relative pitch and music no-how things anyone can learn to do. PP is something that, contrary to what some may say, is NOT easily developed and many maintain it is NOT teachable. Some people have it and some people don't. Particularly after a certain age, it's a very, very hard thing to learn.

Now I happen to believe that anything can be learned. But it may not be as easy as pointing out things to a guy who has "terrible ears" and suddenly he has perfect pitch. I mean it COULD be. We all have remarkable abilities. But this would be the exception and not the rule. I mean maybe he had it all along and you pointing it out he just suddenly got it. Not impossible.
 
explain then how in the first page how user frozen could tell a B almost all the time. It's a different LEVEL, but it IS PP in its INFANCY. He hears it, but only that one. I still have trouble with Ab.
Different LEVELS.
 
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