Parameter Mods - SS-ified Jazz Bass models

Postretro

Inspired
Clean Jazz/Funk/Fusion SS Bass amp

THE PURPOSE OF THIS THREAD

1) Create a clean, punchy Jazz/Funk/Fusion SS Bass Amp
that can be customized for various tones.

2) Identify the fundamental parameters to convert a Guitar amp to Bass amp

3) Identify the most important parameters for shaping the amp's character

4) Identify the more subtle parameters for shaping the amp's character

5) Explain what each parameter does and why (if possible.)

6) Explain what to listen for.

7) Identify all the unused/null tube parameters in the Jazz 120 amp block (SS.)

WHY DO THIS?

1) to open the door a little wider for more clean Jazz/Funk/Fusion Bass players.
At least, to offer one more useful option.

2) to get FAS users to use more amp parameters, more often, and more intentionally.

3) to have a SS Bass Amp with both working Presence and Depth controls.

4) to allow a SS Bass Amp user to take advantage of the Speaker page parameters
-- particularly the "Speaker Impedance Curve" parameter
Clean SS Bass players can draw more benefit from the speaker colorations
than Tube amp players -- who already have plenty of color in their sound.

5) If possible, when finished, to be able to Tone Match an array
of popular modern SS Bass Amps to this SS Bass Amp model.

6) to make people more fluent with the amp parameter tools that are already available.
So, they can shape and customize the character of their own SS Bass Amp manually.
This is especially, for the FM3 and FM9 users
who don't have Tone Matching or an IR player.

7) to get some careful peer-review and to correct any errors.

8) to draw out more useful ideas and possibilities.


EDIT: Go to the end of the thread for the more worked out information.
 
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SS Jazz Bass Amp Patch Jazz/Funk/Fusion

Use the "IDEAL" page of the Amp block to get all the tone controls.


The cab has 2 Ultrares Factory IR's:

4X10 SV BASS 1 121 B1 ML
2X15 DOUBLESHOW (RW.)

The "SPEAKER IMPEDANCE CURVE" is:

43 4x10 Super Verb

Change it all to your own favorite IR's and Curves.

I changed the compression values on the Dynamic Page.
You may want to look at that and see if it suits you.

The pitch block has a 2-octave drop for guitar players to audition it.
Bass players should make sure the pitch block is bypassed.

How do the Presence and Depth controls feel?
What changes in the tone would you like?

text: Jazz 120 default values
text: Jazz 120 modded parameter values -- and notes, this text provides lots of details.
 
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@jzucker, I believe you will really like these. I took the same parameter tricks that I used on the Jazz 120 and applied them to some tube amps with some mods to the tube parameters also -- with extremely surprising results!
Try these two patches. They are as tight as SS. But, with the warmth of tubes.
In fact, you can still swap tubes for different tones!
Tell me if they meet your super-tight SS standards. :sunglasses:
 
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@jzucker, this one is my favorite, so far. I'm going to get some rest now.

Edit: I left the 2 octave down pitch shifter on. Be sure to bypass it.
 
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@jzucker, what I’ve done here is very extreme and radically different from what these tube amps (the last 3 patches) actually are. But, at this time, their tones are still very generic. They can be shaped quite easily and radically in several ways. Be very critical and very specific about anyway in which you wished they were different, or closer to the sound you imagine. There will be some limits, I am sure of that. But, these tones still have lots of options to explore. They are very malleable, well beyond any tone control settings.

I am sure my choice of IR’s and “Speaker Impedance Curves“ is possibly quite weird to any bassist, much less a jazz bassist. Let me know if you have some preferred IR’s. I believe you may have previously skipped the Cab when recording. The main thing is to get back to how you specifically use these tones and then start working from there. Once I can identify which tone shaping tricks are needed to meet your needs. I can put them in your hands for you to apply at your leisure, over time. You may want to start simply by choosing different tubes from the dropdown menu on the ”preamp“ page and the “power tube” page. (Last 3 patches only. Not the Jazz 120 patches.) Shoot me one of your working patches when you have settled on some tones. Then, I can start from where you are at. I think the Jazz 120 patch may have been left in the dust. There is a very, very, wide horizon of bass amp choices to explore now. I really like the “Double Verb SS-ified” patch. But, it needs to be tested. There may be problems that I haven’t noticed and haven’t been able to hear. Let me know which tone or patch works best for you and why.

Also, this trick can be done with any tube amp. Each amp transforms into something different and not always expected, or easily foreseen. I may not be able to increase the actual transient response much from here. I may have exhausted every option there. But, there are always “undocumented features” and I am not a “best practices“ kind of guy. So, who knows. In most other ways the limits have yet to be pushed.
 
@jzucker, what I’ve done here is very extreme and radically different from what these tube amps (the last 3 patches) actually are. But, at this time, their tones are still very generic. They can be shaped quite easily and radically in several ways. Be very critical and very specific about anyway in which you wished they were different, or closer to the sound you imagine. There will be some limits, I am sure of that. But, these tones still have lots of options to explore. They are very malleable, well beyond any tone control settings.

I am sure my choice of IR’s and “Speaker Impedance Curves“ is possibly quite weird to any bassist, much less a jazz bassist. Let me know if you have some preferred IR’s. I believe you may have previously skipped the Cab when recording. The main thing is to get back to how you specifically use these tones and then start working from there. Once I can identify which tone shaping tricks are needed to meet your needs. I can put them in your hands for you to apply at your leisure, over time. You may want to start simply by choosing different tubes from the dropdown menu on the ”preamp“ page and the “power tube” page. (Last 3 patches only. Not the Jazz 120 patches.) Shoot me one of your working patches when you have settled on some tones. Then, I can start from where you are at. I think the Jazz 120 patch may have been left in the dust. There is a very, very, wide horizon of bass amp choices to explore now. I really like the “Double Verb SS-ified” patch. But, it needs to be tested. There may be problems that I haven’t noticed and haven’t been able to hear. Let me know which tone or patch works best for you and why.

Also, this trick can be done with any tube amp. Each amp transforms into something different and not always expected, or easily foreseen. I may not be able to increase the actual transient response much from here. I may have exhausted every option there. But, there are always “undocumented features” and I am not a “best practices“ kind of guy. So, who knows. In most other ways the limits have yet to be pushed.

on my recordings, I have been using an aguilar SL112 IR which is what I have in real life and sounds closest to my real amp.
 
Any comments, and especially precise critical appraisals, of how well these patches do tonewise in comparison to modern SS Bass amps is very much appreciated. Personally, I think life is better without snark. But, I got it too. So, I won’t quibble. Cold-eyed critical assessments of the sound are appreciated. The more precise, or the more poetic, the better.

EDIT:
I just realized how bad the patches were -- due to excessive Negative Feedback. The Jazz 120 patch had a different problem. I was just way too aggressive in pushing the amp models toward SS cleanliness. With my so-so headphones, I thought it was the pitch shifter. I guess nobody wanted to hurt my feelings. Which is nice, I guess. Anyway, with nothing but the smallest amount of negative feedback the patches are much, much, better. Bass 7th chords can be played. But, there is still some weird chorusing/warbling. It could be a lot of things. But until I know, I will hold up on posting the fixed versions. My apologies. I thought I was being shunned, lol. Now I know. When I compared the amp models to a micro boost with a high voltage tube. I realized it wasn't the pitch shifter. Anyway sorry, thank you for your kindness and patience. I still have strong hopes. Even after removing almost all of the NFB -- the 150% supply voltage, setting bias excursion to 0%, using the DC Power Type, and a resistive load made the tube amp a very clean Bass amp when modded for bass. We will see.
 
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hi @Postretro , i tried a couple of the new patches. The jazz mods 1.4 (how does this fit into the original v1 and v2 jc120 mods?) as well as the double verb. I did hear the chorusing thing. I thought the double verb sounded great for melodies on the fretless but for playing ensemble parts on my fretted bass (JCR - a Fodera clone) I thought it sounded thin. Maybe a good sound for playing solos on although its presence was turned up pretty high and was pretty bright by default. But even after tweaking the output eq, I thought the original V1 and V2 I liked a little better. Only spent 1.5 hours on it. Will spend some more tonight unless you are majorly tweaking these. Can we agree on a revision and scene strategy to help make it clearer what I am playing through?
Again, thanks so much and I'm happy to pay you for a lesson on these tweaks!
 
Hey, @jzucker! I'm glad I didn't run you off with that last set of presets. They were so bad. I am so sorry about that. However, I worked out what the problems were. I also created a very sweet, very warm, and very precise bass patch that I know you will really like.

I also found some very sweet bass cabs that sound like bass cabs and which work well together.
I think you will get a lot of mileage out of adjusting the volumes between them.


The Cab uses two very very good Bass Ultra-res IR's:
L.110 1x15 SV BASS SUBKICK
F1.0617 1X15 TRAEL 441+PZM DB


TRAEL 441+PZM
Based on a 2009 Trace Elliot 1x15 TE1518 bass cabinet
featuring the original 15" Celestion bass speaker.
Sennheiser MD441 in Cone Position + Crown PZM.
MicDI method. Source: Dr Bonkers


These two IR's work very smoothly together.
It is very important to keep these two IR's aligned!
Align the right side of the first wave.
Anything else will create a very noticeable
and very annoying interference warble.


I am just about to put them up. All 8 channels are all very useful, no testing - just nice differences.

This sounds a whole lot closer to your sound. The notes are very discrete and clear -- but very full and warm.
It is also very easily customizable at the patch level.

Anyway, give me an hour or less. I will post it soon. I might post the text sooner
 
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Micro Boost With A High Voltage Tube For Bass Guitar
2 Bass Patches -- with 8 scenes each -- at the bottom

This post is in deference to @laxu, @Will Chen, @Xcdchdchjjf, @aflynt and @GreatGreen who all warned me against trying to cobble together a complete bass preamp and power amp for a clean bass sound. I still haven't taken their advice. But, they did make me realize I needed a benchmark for a clean, only slightly colored, bass sound.

As a peace offering, before I go back to fighting bass amp windmills, I offer this bass patch. It provides a lot of minute control over the bass tone. It allows tone variations that fall somewhere between going straight to the board and using a typical multi-stage tube preamp for bass.

The Micro Boost with a high voltage tube adds color.
But, it still keeps the signal very clean sounding.

1) Set the "Clip Type" on the "Advanced" page to "HV_tube" (high voltage tube.)

2) Set the "Mid Frequency" on the "Tone" page to 260 Hz.
-- I like 260 Hz setting for a bass guitar.
-- But, you should adjust the "Mid Frequency" to fit your music in the moment.

(Note: This method can also make other pedals more suitable for bass.)

3) Set the "Drive" to 0.25 on the "Basic" page, adjust for color.


my personal choices-

"Advanced" page:
4) Set "Clip Type" to 0 or 10 (anywhere is good; I actually like 0 and 10 the most.
Clip Shape; 0 = a smooth, focused tone; 10 = a harder, brasher sound."

5) Set "Slew Rate" to 10 (anywhere is good; higher is better transient response)
Slew Rate: 0 = Smoother, Rounded; 10 = Snappier, more Detailed

6) Set"Bias" to 0 or 0.035 (0 = cleaner; 0.035 = dirtier)

"Graphic EQ"
6) If unused, try setting "Graphic EQ" to "OFF," "ON" is warmer, "OFF" is more accurate.

7) If used, try setting "Graphic EQ" to "Pre", for more useful tone control adjustments.

"Basic page"
8) Leave the "Tone" at 5.0 (if possible) for more transparent, less colored sound.

9) Set "Drive" for the amount of color you want to add.

10) I like "Mix" at 100%. But, that is a wide open personal choice.

11) "Mix" could also be attached to a pedal, like many other options, for live use.


The Micro Boost is cleaner than a multi-stage tube preamp.
But, more colored than no preamp stage at all.

Most importantly, the Micro Boost can provide a higher slew rate
-- for more slap, pop and funk bass.
-- It actually feels like it increases the slew rate when used.(?)

Also, the tone controls on the "Graphic EQ," "Basic," and "Tone" pages,
work very independently of each other.
That provides a lot of tone-shaping possibilities.

This bass patch uses,

@Will Chen's previous FF1 compressor suggestion at the end of the signal chain
@jzucker's FB1 compressor setup at the beginning of the signal chain on B1.0
@jzucker's reverb setup on B1.0


The Cab uses two very very good Bass Ultra-res IR's:
L.110 1x15 SV BASS SUBKICK
F1.0617 1X15 TRAEL 441+PZM DB


TRAEL 441+PZM
Based on a 2009 Trace Elliot 1x15 TE1518 bass cabinet
featuring the original 15" Celestion bass speaker.
Sennheiser MD441 in Cone Position + Crown PZM.
MicDI method. Source: @dr bonkers

https://www.drbonkerssoundlab.com/p...lume-5-trael-1x15-bass-cabinet-ir-collection/

These two IR's work very smoothly together.
It is very important to keep these two IR's aligned!
Align the right side of the first wave.
Anything else will create a very noticeable
and very annoying interference warble.

Important! There are Many Color Options in the "Cab" block, here are just a few:

1) "Preamp Type" and "Preamp Mode" (only use "High Quality")

-- "Preamp Type" is very useful.
-- "FET I", "FET II" and "Modern" add smooth clean color
-- "Tube", "Tape" and "Transformer" add slightly more distorted color
__ "Tube" matches the Bass sound on Pink Floyd's "Money."


2) "Proximity" (Cab page) and "Proximity Frequency" (Room/Air page)

3) I did't use any of the "Room" and "Air" options -- but, they are good too.



Below, are two bass patches that incorporate these ideas;
They are good to go. But, they will be better when personalized.

Bass Micro Boost A1.0 More Rock - different First Comp 1 and Reverb
Bass Micro Boost B1.0 More Jazz

There are 8 scenes:

1-4 use the Modern preamp in the Cab block (Cab block A)
1-8 use the Tube preamp in the Cab block (Cab block B)

1-4 The Micro Boost's "Clip Shape" value changes = 0, 2, 5, 10
1-8 The Micro Boost's "Clip Shape" value changes = 0, 2, 5, 10

0 = Super Smooth, 2 = Smooth, 5 = Normal, 10 = Punchy

Two other preamp settings are in the patch -- but not used:
Cab block C = FET I
Cab block D = Transformer
Try all the "Preamp Types" including "none."

There is a Pitch block, set to 1 octave below. So, guitarists can try it out.
Bass players should bypass, or remove, the Pitch block.

Reverb quality is set to "Normal."
Removing the Pitch block will give you more CPU for more pedals or better Reverb.

I really do appreciate feedback.

Edit:
A1.0 Micro Boost "Bias"= 0.035; dirtier
A1.1 Micro Boost "Bias"= 0.000; much cleaner
B1.0 Micro Boost "Bias"= 0.035; dirtier
B1.1 Micro Boost "Bias"= 0.000; much cleaner

FM3 FW 5.02
 

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@jzucker, for clean Jazz you will probably want patch B1.1, scene 1. Scene 4 will be the same as 1 but punchier. For Jazz you may prefer the FET I or FET II preamp (Cab block; Preamp page.) You might even prefer no preamp at all. My guess is you will like one of the FET preamps. They sound like a smooth Jazz tone to me. Also, if you would like it to be smoother and less responsive, try turning down the "Slew Rate" in the Micro Boost (Drive block; Advanced page)

Incidentally, all the detailed changes that are listed are only a log of how the Micro Boost was set up. It is only there to explain a little.

The 6 patches that are up now should be better. Let me know if there are issues. I will get back to the amp oriented patches soon. But, I this is going to be closer to what you want. The chorusing was reduced by the new IR's and careful alignment. But, it seems to be a problem no matter what. Multiple IR's are worse - some combinations more than others. Even IR's of cabs with more than one speaker are more prone to it. Other IR's are a little better. The best, with the least chorusing, seem to be IR's of single speaker cabs. The 4x10's are the worst for it. A pair of two different 4x10 IR's was the big mistake I made last time. So, switch to a single IR, Switch to an FET preamp. I will look into it more. Where did you get your Aguilar 112 IR? I looked but couldn't find any. Dr Bonkers had some Aguilar IR's. But I didn't see any single speaker ones.

Also, the Modern preamp seems to amplify it. FET I or FET II tone it down a little.

I would like the most exacting critique you can give me. It helps me a lot.

A1.2 and B1.2 are the same as 1.1. Except, Slew Rate = 0 (not 10)
 

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@jzucker, for clean Jazz you will probably want patch B1.1, scene 1. Scene 4 will be the same as 1 but punchier. For Jazz you may prefer the FET I or FET II preamp (Cab block; Preamp page.) You might even prefer no preamp at all. My guess is you will like one of the FET preamps. They sound like a smooth Jazz tone to me. Also, if you would like it to be smoother and less responsive, try turning down the "Slew Rate" in the Micro Boost (Drive block; Advanced page)

Incidentally, all the detailed changes that are listed are only a log of how the Micro Boost was set up. It is only there to explain a little.

The 6 patches that are up now should be better. Let me know if there are issues. I will get back to the amp oriented patches soon. But, I this is going to be closer to what you want. The chorusing was reduced by the new IR's and careful alignment. But, it seems to be a problem no matter what. Multiple IR's are worse - some combinations more than others. Even IR's of cabs with more than one speaker are more prone to it. Other IR's are a little better. The best, with the least chorusing, seem to be IR's of single speaker cabs. The 4x10's are the worst for it. A pair of two different 4x10 IR's was the big mistake I made last time. So, switch to a single IR, Switch to an FET preamp. I will look into it more. Where did you get your Aguilar 112 IR? I looked but couldn't find any. Dr Bonkers had some Aguilar IR's. But I didn't see any single speaker ones.

Also, the Modern preamp seems to amplify it. FET I or FET II tone it down a little.

I would like the most exacting critique you can give me. It helps me a lot.

A1.2 and B1.2 are the same as 1.1. Except, Slew Rate = 0 (not 10)
i'll download these after work today and give you some comments. The aguilar SL112 I got here. https://www.tylerspicermusic.com/shop/p/a-slight-112-ir

it's the best IR i've found for doing the jazz stuff that I'm doing. I tried the bergantino from celestion but really didn't think it was flat enough. It seemed very bright and midrangey
 
@jzucker, I have noticed a few other things. The "Mid Frequency" might be different for a 5 or 6 string bass than a 4-string bass. If the top string seems too thin sounding. Try raising the "Mid Frequency" on the Micro Boost. 200Hz is good for a four sting bass. 260Hz may be good enough for a 5 string. Just experiment with the "Mid Frequency." Find out what sounds best for your music and your rig. Just adjust the "Mid Frequency"while jamming to the music you like. For cleaner, thinner brighter styles of music the "Mid Frequency" will sound better a little lower. For heavier, warmer, bassier styles of music it will sound better a little higher. But, both frequency locations will be lower than a normal guitar

Also, oddly enough, a negative bias on the Micro Boost seems to make the chorusing clash less. It doesn't reduce the chorusing. It just makes chords near the nut sound less out of tune. Maybe less 5th and 7th harmonics with the different bias? I'm not as sure about how it sounds higher at the 12th fret.

I found some IR's chorus more in the lower frequencies of first two octaves. And, other IR's would chorus more in the higher frequencies of second two octaves in the bass. See if that makes any sense to you. But, listen always listen to both areas for improvements or otherwise.
 
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I just tried B1.1 scene 1. There's no amp? My first impression was that the drive block was distorting. I bypassed it and then noticed high cut was set to 2000 on the speaker so I set it to 16,000 and then the entire preset stopped working (silence). I tried setting the drive block back to in circuit but nothing. I think we ran into some type of FM3 bug....
 
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Tried b1.2 scene 1, same deal. I figured out it's the combination of my SL112 IR and the dual compressors overloading the CPU that's causing it to go silent so I upped the high cut to 16k, removed both compressors, swapped the IR out to my SL112. My impression is that it's nasally compared to the original bassmod 1 , scene 1.

I also think we lose some usability by not having a standard amp's preamp controls of treble, mid, bass, high treble, presence, etc...I think the JC 120 mods you did work better than the micro
 
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It is running pretty close to the CPU limit. Get rid of the Pitch block. I am sure I left it in there. My guess is it will function then. Wait, check to see if the Cab got bypass. I bet, your IR requires more CPU. I run into that before.
 
Yes, that Subkick added a lot of bass. In the Drive block on the Tone page the Bass has been set to -7 dB. Set it to 0.
 
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