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OwnHammer Room and Far Field IR's

ownhammer

Veteran
Welcome! Something worth mentioning - I think I remember hearing a sound demo (Necrophagist cover, I think?) of somebody using a stock OH IR and putting the RE16 sim on it and the track sounded natural. So that's not to say you should never try it, but it would be more to chance and possibly alternate tonestack or EQ settings to do so and off would indefinitely be a better starting point.
 

barhrecords

Axe-Master
Yes. Some would argue that conceptually they should be used on their own to simulate the 'in the room' sound, but I think that practically (and is the approach I took when tuning how I wanted them to sound) they should be used in conjunction with near fields.
I have been trying out making presets using only the AxeFx factory FF IR's.

I was hoping to use the new OH far fields in the same way; i.e. without combining with a NF.

Is there something instrinsically flawed with that approach due to the way you are creating your FF IR's or would it be fine for my method as long as I tweak my preset?

Richard
 

ownhammer

Veteran
I said what I said more as I think most people would get quicker results with the combo method, as they probably have their patches most of the way there with a near field or near field mix already and are just missing a little bit of something to make it pop in FRFR. When I had a XiTone in my possession for a couple of weeks (borrowed), this was how I was most happy without needing to touch the VST amp settings I had sent out to the X7. I feel that this reflects the concept that most have for auditioning IR's - one gets the rest of the settings the way they think they like or is close, then use the IR to tune the sound further, instead of the other way around which more often than not should probably be the way that it's done. Assumptions of course on my part, but based on lurking observation.

If you have built your patches, approach, and playback monitoring around the use of the stock FF's, I don't think you should have much issue in transition to the use of these. While I do not have an Axe I or II to compare against (speaking frankly, I'm too broke for new gear purchases after having our second kid for a long time for anything requiring a substantial investment), I had at some point found some of Jay's FF's in a zip file somewhere on this forum. While there are obvious differences in speaker, cabinet, technique subtleties, possibly outboard gear, etc, I opted for a sound that you could say would be somewhat of a middle ground between his On Axis and 30 Degrees IR's. By middle ground, I mean conceptual median, not what the two would sound like summed, as there is certainly a difference in the two. As with the bulk of my approach, I don't so much dabble in extremes as I do small variations of what I think is the sweet spot, so there will not be the huge variation in response between positions 1 to 5 as you would get going from aforementioned On Axis to 30 Degrees JM FF. To that extent, if you want some of that overly rumbly bass to blend in, Back-of-Cab has got your back, or maybe even the mid-field Floor positions if that is too resonant sounding, leaving you with only the need to possibly boost some treble in your patch, and that it's a maybe, not sure what you have dialed in right now nor what you're using and how it would compare with what I did.

Hopefully this was helpful?
 

barhrecords

Axe-Master
I said what I said more as I think most people would get quicker results with the combo method, as they probably have their patches most of the way there with a near field or near field mix already and are just missing a little bit of something to make it pop in FRFR. When I had a XiTone in my possession for a couple of weeks (borrowed), this was how I was most happy without needing to touch the VST amp settings I had sent out to the X7. I feel that this reflects the concept that most have for auditioning IR's - one gets the rest of the settings the way they think they like or is close, then use the IR to tune the sound further, instead of the other way around which more often than not should probably be the way that it's done. Assumptions of course on my part, but based on lurking observation.

If you have built your patches, approach, and playback monitoring around the use of the stock FF's, I don't think you should have much issue in transition to the use of these. While I do not have an Axe I or II to compare against (speaking frankly, I'm too broke for new gear purchases after having our second kid for a long time for anything requiring a substantial investment), I had at some point found some of Jay's FF's in a zip file somewhere on this forum. While there are obvious differences in speaker, cabinet, technique subtleties, possibly outboard gear, etc, I opted for a sound that you could say would be somewhat of a middle ground between his On Axis and 30 Degrees IR's. By middle ground, I mean conceptual median, not what the two would sound like summed, as there is certainly a difference in the two. As with the bulk of my approach, I don't so much dabble in extremes as I do small variations of what I think is the sweet spot, so there will not be the huge variation in response between positions 1 to 5 as you would get going from aforementioned On Axis to 30 Degrees JM FF. To that extent, if you want some of that overly rumbly bass to blend in, Back-of-Cab has got your back, or maybe even the mid-field Floor positions if that is too resonant sounding, leaving you with only the need to possibly boost some treble in your patch, and that it's a maybe, not sure what you have dialed in right now nor what you're using and how it would compare with what I did.

Hopefully this was helpful?
Exactly the info I was looking for!

Thanks so much,
Richard
 

MGoBlue

Inspired
I haven't purchased the OH set yet (plan to), but just wanted to give Kevin a big atta-boy for all of the great info and demos in this thread. I have learned a ton about the hows/whys of using different cabs and mic placements. Even w/o having yet purchased any custom cabs, I have a much better understanding of what I am doing with the stock cabs.

The depth of the info certainly goes beyond what I have come to expect from most companies these days. Realistically he would probably sell plenty of product w/o giving us all this info, so its a real treat.

Double thanks Kevin!!
 
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mtmartin71

Veteran
Will Ownhammer be doing FFs for just a select group of their old cabs? I really like these mixed with their TC30 1 position. I'm using the stock FFs for like sounds cabs but it'd be great to pair the FF version of each OH cab. Just curious...
 

ownhammer

Veteran
Will Ownhammer be doing FFs for just a select group of their old cabs? I really like these mixed with their TC30 1 position. I'm using the stock FFs for like sounds cabs but it'd be great to pair the FF version of each OH cab. Just curious...
All, in time. In no particular order or ratio, I'll be alternating between new releases and old library updates. It won't be a quick thing, but the plan is to at some point catch everything up to what the 412-GTR Bogner V31 has now. All new libraries will of course be created this way also, and owners of the old libraries get the new updates and inclusions at no extra cost. Truth be told I'm probably more anxious to get the updates finished than anybody else... :lol
 

SimonDreyer

Inspired
Hi Kevin
All this talk of FF and NF mixing sounds great and I will definitely give it a go but may I make a suggestion (or two )?

1) Add a getting started section to your web page, some very basic explanations of what exactly an IR is and explain some of the terminology. What are the different formats? .wav is a VERY bad thing to name something if it isn't a simple wave file, I for one was quite confused on this one and I am a programmer (and still confused actually!) :)

2) Your web site makes it VERY hard to actually purchase anything. I remember about six months ago (when I had money :)) I tried to purchase the whole set and gave up after half an hour of futile clicking around in circles. You probably don't want to make the whole thing look too crass but you could do with some nice big "BUY IT NOW" buttons. In this very thread you added a link to the updated FF IR's, I though "great I'll buy this one and see how it goes", clicked on the link, again no way to purchase? Now I may well be an idiot (many can vouch for me on this) but please try and cater to myself and other poor souls similarly afflicted.

Cheers Simon ( 0 )===:::
 

ownhammer

Veteran
...I tried to purchase the whole set and gave up after half an hour of futile clicking around in circles...
I have noticed two scenarios for which this blue moon type of occurrence has transpired:

1) PayPal API rejection with error 10417:

https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=developer/e_howto_api_nvp_errorcodes

Going on memory of past Googlings, IIRC this is a fraud prevention payment authentication measure though glitchy and subject to false positive. At that, it is related to PayPal and in no way related to the integration of it in my site (i.e. affects people's eBay transactions as well, etc.)

2) Possible browser problem with Safari, addressed in the Store FAQ, Q/A #7:

OwnHammer.com - Store F.A.Q.

If you're having functional problems with transacting through the site, the place to bring this up would be sending a message through the contact page, linked in the Support header menu:

OwnHammer.com - Contact Us

Hope this helps! :)
 
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qingcong

Inspired
All, in time. In no particular order or ratio, I'll be alternating between new releases and old library updates. It won't be a quick thing, but the plan is to at some point catch everything up to what the 412-GTR Bogner V31 has now. All new libraries will of course be created this way also, and owners of the old libraries get the new updates and inclusions at no extra cost. Truth be told I'm probably more anxious to get the updates finished than anybody else... :lol

Your facebook mentions something about IRs with harmonic distortion information. Is this something you are working on?
 

ownhammer

Veteran
A good reminder that I need to update my Facebook and MySpace pages when I have time, which I don't think has been done in a year and a half, thank you. :) As you'll notice, the profile image is using the background and logo images from the original site. Kind of an out of sight out of mind thing, but I digress...

Harmonic distortion is not able to be captured in linear deconvolution, so if it is available in the signal you will not have it captured in .wav or .syx IR's unless algorithmically added as a pseudo-simulation feature in the IR loader. Only Nebula is capable of doing this as it pertains to the pure capture data alone at this time that I am aware of. In the beginning I did my Nebula cabs with multiple kernels (harmonic orders), though over time and further investigation I've noticed that my system for capturing them is essentially distortion free, add that speakers are actually extremely linear pieces of hardware and don't generate distortion on their own nor deviate from their inherent frequency response unless they're unsafely overloaded (which isn't necessarily pleasant, desirable, nor gives accurate deconvolved information), so I've removed it as a feature with new libraries and updates as I now consider it resource utilization bloat. Testing has provided that what people commonly mislabel as speaker 'dynamics' and 'distortion' is actually a product of the alteration in frequency response, harmonic content, and dynamics of the guitar preamp, guitar power amp, and microphone element being driven, where each aforementioned variable is applicable. Even the Fletcher Munson Curves concept I believe plays an integral role in this misunderstood phenomenon. I'm getting off topic, and not one I want to derail into nor discuss further, so again I digress.. :lol

If I were using cranked tube power amps to drive the speakers, it would be a different story, however I sample said tube power amps separately and in most cases do so with up to 10 harmonic orders. In the PRO series I use both my solid state Bryston as well as a tube Engl power amp, however the latter is used primarily for the linear aspects of the frequency response alteration of the hardware in general as well as the inherent tone knob. To that end, again harmonic content is available primarily with the Power Amp Nebula programs.
 
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barhrecords

Axe-Master
Kevin, that was a great explanation of the debunking of the speaker distortion myth.

Nice way of explaining the loudspeaker itself will only add distortion when it is failing. The sound of that is not desirable.

Richard
 

qingcong

Inspired
Cool, that's useful info. As I understand, woofers start generating a lot more harmonic distortion down in the low freqs. You found that these levels of distortion were low enough that they had essentially minimal affect on the sound?
 

ownhammer

Veteran
Pretty much. It's not to say that there is nothing going on, but my point in bringing it up is that what is there, if anything, is more of the molehill persuasion, less the mountain that I feel is falsely attributed to it. When I had done said testing, as I pushed the speaker into failure, the resultant sound was one with more low frequency information, which would coincide with what you have mentioned. I also felt that some fidelity was exchanged in the process, and do not make it a regular practice to operate under those conditions. In that situation I would prefer adding a dab of 100 Hz in additional EQ instead, FWIW.
 

ownhammer

Veteran
It is not my intention to shamelessly necro-bump this thread, however I just wanted to inform those of you who are watching this alone for release information on the '72 Fender Vibro Champ library that was mentioned in this thread that it is now online:

April 20, 2012 - Release: 108-GTR Vibro F59

Unless requested through response/inquiry I'll refrain from posting further. Have a nice weekend! :)
 

ownhammer

Veteran
are there any plans to far field some non V-30 4X12's?
Some G12M's or GT-75's?
G65's or H 75s?
I'm also really looking for something G12M based (The Scumbag M speaker for example), as that's my preferred speaker most of the time.
Yes, all previous libraries will get updated with these and all new libraries will have them, and I have literally a decade worth of sampling ahead of me, assuming it is worth the time and effort to do so and the technology doesn't take any dramatic turns that would require me to ditch what I've already done and start over. Only pertaining and relating to 12" guitar cabs/speakers, here's what I currently have at permanent disposal (i.e. not borrowed, rented, or otherwise) with more to be added as time goes by:

- Cabs -
Boogafunk Thiele 1x12
Stone Age 1x12
Bogner Shiva 2x12
Bogner 4x12
Krank Krankenstein 4x12
Mesa Rectifier 4x12
Mills Acoustics 4x12

- Speakers -
Celestion Alnico Blue
Celestion Classic Lead 80
Celestion G12-65
Celestion G12H-30
Celestion G12K-100
Celestion G12M-25
Celestion G12T-75
Celestion Vintage 30 (Chinese)
Celestion Vintage 30 (English)
Electro Voice EVM-12L Classic
Eminence Texas Heat
Scumback H75
Scumback J75
Scumback M55
Scumback M75
Jensen Jet Alnico Blackbird
Jensen P12N

My hope is to put every one of those speakers in every one of those cabinets, but seeing as how 1 combo takes me 2-3 weeks to do, it's gonna be quite a while as you can see. Additionally, I have about a half dozen other possible/hopeful lends from friends and internet aquaintances alike for other speakers and cabs for one off libraries that I'd like to act on asap so as to not let the offers slip off the table. I'm getting off topic, but from the above you should be able to get an idea of what to expect in the short and long term from me. :)
 
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