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Output level knob behavior

Dimebucker

Veteran
Nice you did find that my old thread what i was looking for too ,and yeah i did spell/write wrong there that word i did mean change. But like i was say i did hear difference not huge but there was slightly difference ,but there is now those Digital values for Output knobs and that is very nice. And i must say i don`t remember where i did say i hear 1% difference ,would be nice to see that statement if you can find it somewhere.


i found the thread dimebucker is referring to. i'm honestly not trying to present anything or anyone in a bad light. i just happen to completely disagree with his findings. this was done before we had the Out knob % indications.

http://forum.fractalaudio.com/axe-fx-ii-wish-list/86436-digital-readout-output-1-2-while-adjusting-them.html

unfortunately i have deleted the recordings posted in that thread. my first test was different performances of the same riff at different output knob settings. i didn't use a looper and at the time wanted the slight variations, though i tried to play the riff exactly the same.

here is a screenshot of his analysis comparing a recording of Out 1 at 9 o' clock gain adjusted to match the 12 o' clock (he said the gain adjustment was needed for his analyzer).



you might find it hard to notice 2 lines - blue and purple - for the frequency response. those 2 lines represent the similarity of the takes. it's almost exact, the most visual variation being around 125 hz, probably due to me hitting the strings slightly differently.

the red line near the x axis is what you'd need to change in EQ for them to be exactly identical. it's less than a dB of change here and there for 2 different performances of the same riff. i doubt those changes come from the out knob position.

this was between 9 and 12 o' clock on the dial, a pretty major change. throughout the thread, he was saying that even a slight change - say 11:30 vs 12:00 on the dial - would change his tone.


(he spells "change" as "chance" everywhere btw.)

i made a 2nd recording using a looper this time to take out any performance variations. in this recording there were multiple sections, some repeated for closer comparison as the clip got longer. section 2 was a copy/paste of section 3, for reference sake. dime was sure he heard a difference between those 2 sections. but they were exactly the same.

i am not saying what HE perceives is wrong. but i do disagree that it is the same with my Axe, and most likely majority of other Axe users.

at any rate, we now have % indicators for the out knobs. but dime isn't using the FW with that feature, so he unfortunately has to make sure he doesn't bump his Out knobs at all for his usage.
 

Gytaxor

Inspired
I'd be surprised if the difference is more than a fraction of a dB. We test the output to be flat within +/- 1 dB over the range of the knob. In fact I'd be surprised if there were any measurable variation at all.
Now that is all I needed to hear. :)

Thanks for the info.
 

jdosher

Inspired
Yeah, I certainly haven't noticed a difference, and if there is a slight difference, it hasn't effected me. I just found it interesting that someone had actually measured a difference. Is it measurable? Appearently. Is it audible? Not sure. You'd be suprised just how low your range of hearing cuts off. Test it out some time. I've done a couple of different tests - one was a web page applet that'll guess your age based on the higest frequency you can hear. I've been VERY protective of my hearing all my life, and it guessed my age correctly... given the 12.5KHz cut-off of my hearing range. No 20KHz for me :-( And I'm only in my early 40's, with better than average hearing for a "rock guy".

(Actually, don't do that test. You'll be sad.)
 

FractalAudio

Administrator
Fractal Audio Systems
Moderator
Here is a measurement off a production unit with the knob at roughly 8:00, noon and 4:00. The blips at the ends of the traces are where the sweep oscillator "turns around" (I used the synth block to generate a sweep with LFO1 as the sweep oscillator). If you can hear the difference between those three traces then you should donate your ears and brain to medical science. Also note that I didn't calibrate the system before doing that so that 1/2 dB of variation is probably the test setup. The Axe-Fx uses reference quality components and design methodologies. It's probably more accurate than the audio interface used in the measurements.

 

Dimebucker

Veteran
Yes i did measured differences there because i did want make sure what there was happening ,i think that point i was recording some my old project guitar tracks and i did notice something is not right whit my old preset.

Yeah, I certainly haven't noticed a difference, and if there is a slight difference, it hasn't effected me. I just found it interesting that someone had actually measured a difference. Is it measurable? Appearently. Is it audible? Not sure. You'd be suprised just how low your range of hearing cuts off. Test it out some time. I've done a couple of different tests - one was a web page applet that'll guess your age based on the higest frequency you can hear. I've been VERY protective of my hearing all my life, and it guessed my age correctly... given the 12.5KHz cut-off of my hearing range. No 20KHz for me :-( And I'm only in my early 40's, with better than average hearing for a "rock guy".

(Actually, don't do that test. You'll be sad.)
 

Dimebucker

Veteran
Thanks so much for that info very nice to see those results.


Here is a measurement off a production unit with the knob at roughly 8:00, noon and 4:00. The blips at the ends of the traces are where the sweep oscillator "turns around" (I used the synth block to generate a sweep with LFO1 as the sweep oscillator). If you can hear the difference between those three traces then you should donate your ears and brain to medical science. Also note that I didn't calibrate the system before doing that so that 1/2 dB of variation is probably the test setup. The Axe-Fx uses reference quality components and design methodologies. It's probably more accurate than the audio interface used in the measurements.

 

GotMetalBoy

Forum Addict
I have to set my Output 1 between 9 and 11 o'clock or else sound guys say my signal is too hot and peaking their mixer channel. If you're hearing different distortion at different Output levels, you may be peaking the mixer's channel. I always test my output by playing a loud clean preset and if I hear distortion, I lower the Output knob bc some sound guys are clueless in my neck of the woods and don't know what gain staging is.
 

chris

Legend!
I have to set my Output 1 between 9 and 11 o'clock or else sound guys say my signal is too hot and peaking their mixer channel. If you're hearing different distortion at different Output levels, you may be peaking the mixer's channel. I always test my output by playing a loud clean preset and if I hear distortion, I lower the Output knob bc some sound guys are clueless in my neck of the woods and don't know what gain staging is.
sometimes i run a mixer with its Trim knob all the way down and it provides enough signal. many sound guys think you HAVE to turn it up past 12:00 or something.

to help combat that, you can go to the Global Graphic EQ and turn down the Gain slider. just remember to turn it back up later.
 

svl

Forum Addict
I have to set my Output 1 between 9 and 11 o'clock or else sound guys say my signal is too hot and peaking their mixer channel. If you're hearing different distortion at different Output levels, you may be peaking the mixer's channel. I always test my output by playing a loud clean preset and if I hear distortion, I lower the Output knob bc some sound guys are clueless in my neck of the woods and don't know what gain staging is.
Had this prob, and it wasn't mine or the Axe's. The sound guy needs to treat your signal from the Axe like a keyboard and pad it/run it as a line level in. If you have this problem with a lot of venues, do what I did and buy a DI to idiot-proof your rig. This way if they just don't get it (or have shite boards without pad ability) you can just pad it yourself. Easy peasy lemon squeezy.
 

Zwiebelchen

Fractal Fanatic
I have to set my Output 1 between 9 and 11 o'clock or else sound guys say my signal is too hot and peaking their mixer channel.
This is a common problem actually. When matching your levels so that the VU meter on the utility tab shows peaks at roughly the 0dB mark, you will find yourself setting the output level to about 9'o'clock mostly to have the optimal output level for gain-staging. This also matches healthy headphone levels for passive headphones.

Unfortunately, this zone is also where the output knob is most sensitive at.

So what I do is I use the global EQ and turn the main slider all the way down to -12dB. This allows me to turn the output level knob much higher and leave the zone in which the slightest touch of the knob results in giant volume jumps.
 

GotMetalBoy

Forum Addict
Had this prob, and it wasn't mine or the Axe's. The sound guy needs to treat your signal from the Axe like a keyboard and pad it/run it as a line level in. If you have this problem with a lot of venues, do what I did and buy a DI to idiot-proof your rig. This way if they just don't get it (or have shite boards without pad ability) you can just pad it yourself. Easy peasy lemon squeezy.
You read my mind bc I've actually been looking to buy a DI Box. Do you know if the ART DUALZDirect is any good?
ART Pro Audio

Also, like other people have suggested, I've used the Global EQ Level to lower my volume but I forgot I had lowered it all the way and then adjusted all my Preset and Scene levels :( I haven't had the time to correct them yet.
 

Zwiebelchen

Fractal Fanatic
You read my mind bc I've actually been looking to buy a DI Box. Do you know if the ART DUALZDirect is any good?
ART Pro Audio

Also, like other people have suggested, I've used the Global EQ Level to lower my volume but I forgot I had lowered it all the way and then adjusted all my Preset and Scene levels :( I haven't had the time to correct them yet.
Huh? The Global EQ should not affect the VU meters if I'm not mistaken?
 
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