Opinions Wanted: Do You Believe Finger Speed Is A Natural Talent?

I see an analogy with children, some have a better coordination than the other. They are young and they didn't have that much time to practice, so they start with something they are born with - genetics. The ones that have a better coordination have a higher probability to be good in sports. If it's not the muscles or physical predispositions, respectively limitations, then the brain plays the most important role, how it's wired. And you can't train your brain to have a higher IQ than you naturally have. You probably can raise it a few points but not 30 or 50 points. Practice, extreme motivation and persistence can bring you a few steps further but it can't make of you something you're not. That's my opinion.
 
TSJMajesty said:
I have been putting in the time, lots of time, especially this past year, but another problem that surfaces is, well, life.
I have said before, and I truly believe this, (and am pretty sure it's supported by science) that the younger you start, the faster you'll progress, because the younger you are, the more malleable your brain is, and thus, can more easily create those neural pathways.

But another reason why age isn't on your side, or rather, aging, is simply because when you're young, if you want to devote all your spare time towards guitar practice, you're pretty much free to do so (within certain limits of course.)

So even though I have more drive and perseverance now than I've ever had, since I have many other responsibilities, and the results come much slower than when I was younger, seeing the relatively low ROI (return on investment) kinda gets discouraging, and starts me thinking, maybe I'm realistically past the point where I can learn these certain solos and licks that I have on my "list," and it is what it is.

That's not to say I haven't impressed myself with the improvements I have made, it's just, maybe it's time to stop trying to improve my technique, and instead focus on becoming the most polished player I can be, with the tools I now have. Maybe. ;)
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Totally understand your points man.
Life does always get in the way I have this issue too as I’m sure lots of folks do also
It’s what you do with the time you have though that really matters not so much the quantity of time or hours put into learning say a particular lick or solo
About the youth point you raise I don’t completely think it’s true to say when you are young because you have all the time in the world to practice it there will be more pay off compared too being older
I know tons of guitar players that had unlimited practice time when they were younger and they all never really became great players or anything
There is a lot of pseudo science about when reading up about practicing this way or that way so be wary of this especially online where everyone seems to have theory on how to improve etc get faster etc
To give my own example I started fairly late at guitar around 16 I think and was a shred guitar fan played in my Metal band and practiced a lot , got good at alt picking for solos and legato stuff etc.. but as a guitar ‘player’ I was really incomplete
I’m 43 now and am a much happier player as managed to fill in the gaps in my playing (mostly musical gaps rather than technical)
These days I maybe practice about 15 mins a day but unplugged mostly as I like the immediate feedback loop you get playing unplugged
If I learn say a Paul Gilbert or Gary
Moore solo say I maybe separate it into easy parts / hard parts
Usually manage to get there in a week or two depending on ‘life’ of course and I am not particularly talented I just enjoy it is all
I guess I just wanted to say all is not lost , age I don’t believe affects playing (except maybe the taste aspect of playing)
Maybe ditch the metronome for while and take on piece you enjoy just musically rather than technique based , it’s got to be enjoyable otherwise what’s the point
Spend 10 minutes a day on one solo or section or lick for each day for a week or so without a metronome and making sure you play comfortably is much much more beneficial than spending hours with lots of different licks/techniques
Anyway I’m rambling sorry
 
TSJMajesty said:
I have been putting in the time, lots of time, especially this past year, but another problem that surfaces is, well, life.
I have said before, and I truly believe this, (and am pretty sure it's supported by science) that the younger you start, the faster you'll progress, because the younger you are, the more malleable your brain is, and thus, can more easily create those neural pathways.

But another reason why age isn't on your side, or rather, aging, is simply because when you're young, if you want to devote all your spare time towards guitar practice, you're pretty much free to do so (within certain limits of course.)

So even though I have more drive and perseverance now than I've ever had, since I have many other responsibilities, and the results come much slower than when I was younger, seeing the relatively low ROI (return on investment) kinda gets discouraging, and starts me thinking, maybe I'm realistically past the point where I can learn these certain solos and licks that I have on my "list," and it is what it is.

That's not to say I haven't impressed myself with the improvements I have made, it's just, maybe it's time to stop trying to improve my technique, and instead focus on becoming the most polished player I can be, with the tools I now have. Maybe. ;)
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Well said for sure!
 
Andy Eagle said:
In classical music there is a tried a tested rout that takes practically everyone who properly engages with it to a technical standard far higher than most other fields of music then some through physical aptitude and personal obsession achieve a higher level. You can call that "talent" but what an insult.
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In my opinion this is a great point, and one which I missed in my earlier parse-through of the thread.

Hope I'm not talking out of my backside here, but I think a part of the problem is that in popular music (definitely rock, jazz I suppose to a lesser extent, metal most definitely) there is not a unified concept of the Modern technique for the electric guitar like there is for classical instruments. When it comes to the flashier styles of playing that became the mainstay of rock and metal in the 80's (for better or worse) everyone got there kind of in their own way. In this regard I think Troy Grady's meticulous analysis of modern rock players' techniques is tremendous. Because, in the end, in playing these types of things (ie. playing speedy stuff fluently) everyone, and I mean everyone (well, OK, maybe not Stanley Jordan..), has to solve the exact same problems. Problems like negotiating different types of string changes at tempo, playing arpeggiated patterns, playing across the strings etc.

Troy's videos illustrate that there are many idiosyncratic ways in which players solve these issues - some negotiate string changes using an economy picking approach, some handle tricky changes by injecting a little bit of legato work to facilitate the string change etc. And he seems to emphasize the point that whatever your natural playing style and technique is, you can find ways of making that work for you.

(unless we're talking real risk factors in your technique like excessive use of force and tension, real bad posture and so on, which put you at a big risk for RSI later on)
 
TSJMajesty said:
Thanks for that! I've heard Ben Eller also talk about the chunks, and I've also watched videos in which guys recommend purposely playing faster than you can play the lick cleanly. But I've also watched guitarists say they won't bump up the metronome until they can play the lick 5 times in a row, cleanly.

I try to do both. I do notice speed improvements when I push my speed into "sloppy" territory, but I'll also roll the speed back down, in order to improve the accuracy. I don't believe, or at least I don't see it in my own practice sessions, that you can clean up a sloppy riff by continuing to play it faster than you can play it cleanly.

I guess I'm mainly asking for advice/opinions because, yeah, Dream Theater is my favorite band, and John Petrucci is the guitar god so many of us are inspired by, so yeah, I'd very much like to be able to play a couple of their songs.

2 that come to mind that I feel are attainable, are Peruvian Skies, and Wither. I just about have the fast run in PS, but even in Wither, he has this blazing fast, 16th-note triplet lick, at the end, which is SO EFFIN HARD, especially due to the fact that he hits only one note on the adjacent string, which means screw thinking about downward/upward pick slant, because how the hell can you even change the pick slant angle that fast? I think those kinds of licks are some of THE hardest to master. He does the same type lick in Pull Me Under.
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If you want to burn your guitar….check out Jordan Rudess on Instagram. He’s taking guitar lessons and is already doing sweeps and legato runs. JPs gig is in danger. Lmao.

I also wondered the OP question. I’ve got some speed under my belt but it’s mostly descending runs. I’m much better at that then ascending. I think it takes dedicated and SLOW practice to get the fingers and muscle memory firing. And consistency is huge. Case in point….I learned Bark at the Moon a few years back. REALLY learned it. Jakes solo is amazing on that song and his rhythm is…well…if you watch videos of him playing it, it’s very unconventional. Anyway, the solo was something I had down EXCEPT for the ascending run. Again ascending licks don’t come easy for me. So I broke it down into parts and practiced it slowly for a couple weeks. I ended up nailing it. It was a memorable and proud moment for me. Felt like I was 13 again and discovering something new. HOWEVER, time has passed and I lost the ability to blaze through it. My fingers are back to where they were. So keeping consistent and keeping your chops up is critical. But can it be done? Yes. I’m sure a lot of the top players out there also struggled with speed. Some may have it come easy Ans some may not. For those of us in the NOT category, I think it can be done.
 
Genetic limitations are definitely a thing, but the vast majority of people never put in the effort towards a goal that would get them anywhere near that ceiling. Conscientiousness also has a genetic component to it. I guess “talent“ is where genetic predisposition and circumstances match up, and you really go at something when you’re young.
 
Purplestrats said:
I guess “talent“ is where genetic predisposition and circumstances match up, and you really go at something when you’re young.
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Environment also plays a role. When you are a kid, it plays an even bigger role. Being around negativity directed at you from the bigger fish in your pond can set you on a path away from where your talent and 'happy place' live if they are bad enough. Sometimes it can spur you to overcome issues on your own, but it also often sets you up with a lot of crap to unlearn just to move forward to zero, and into the positive....
 
TD77 said:
If you want to burn your guitar….check out Jordan Rudess on Instagram. He’s taking guitar lessons and is already doing sweeps and legato runs. JPs gig is in danger. Lmao.
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Thanks, but I don't need another source of discouragement, lol!
I wonder if, and if so, to what extent, his skills on keys is helping to translate to the guitar.
As far as ascending runs go, the one in the BATM solo is one of the more difficult ones.
 
Allright. I don't make NY resolutions but I will for 22. To spend less time playing the stuff I already have down and work at things I struggle with, which I tend to avoid. I have never questioned that to get really good you need to work hard at it. But I still believe that some people have natural physical skills over other people. Same for mental skills. We have IQ tests, but is there anything like that for guitar skills? Nope as far as I know. For me, playing consistent 16th notes on a single string is awkward and always has been. Don't know why, it's just clumsy for me. Ascending runs are harder for me than descending too. But for 22 I will attempt to dedicate some time to a series of exercises, and hopefully some of my roadblocks will open up. Cheers everyone!
 
TSJMajesty said:
Thanks, but I don't need another source of discouragement, lol!
I wonder if, and if so, to what extent, his skills on keys is helping to translate to the guitar.
As far as ascending runs go, the one in the BATM solo is one of the more difficult ones.
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Ha. I think Jordan’s dexterity on the keys is definitely benefitting him. It’s scary to watch. As for the BATM ascending run….yes it’s a bitch. But if you take your time and practice it’s doable. For me it was more of getting my fingers used to movements they don’t normally do. Had to build up the muscle memory. Try it. Give yourself a couple weeks. I guarantee you’ll nail it.
 
TD77 said:
Ha. I think Jordan’s dexterity on the keys is definitely benefitting him. It’s scary to watch. As for the BATM ascending run….yes it’s a bitch. But if you take your time and practice it’s doable. For me it was more of getting my fingers used to movements they don’t normally do. Had to build up the muscle memory. Try it. Give yourself a couple weeks. I guarantee you’ll nail it.
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I have. I'm not yet good enough to get that one in just a couple of weeks. So I'm working on more general licks that will build my dexterity across string changes.
Regarding that lick though... I found a picking pattern that works using economy picking. Assuming you're playing it in the 5th position (can't think of any reason not to), you start each run with an upstroke, then every string change will be a 2-note downstroke "sweep." I figure that picking pattern would be the most economical, and puts you in position to start the 16th-note triplet part on a downstroke. But it's like creating entirely new muscle memory!
My thinking is, if I learn a lick like that using the most economical pick movements, even though it'll take me longer to learn it than using strict alt-picking, at faster speeds it'll be easier, and also give me a new "tool" to use for my overall technique. So far it's not working. :tearsofjoy: But that's probably because I don't invest the time. I just feel there's many other aspects of my playing that need more work. Such as transitioning from a downstroke on a higher string to an upstroke on the adjacent lower string, like in the end run of that solo. I still have trouble with that particular move, so I sit and just do triplet patterns to get that string change down, since it's used in so many riffs.
Ex: Start on downstroke, all alt picking, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th strings, 5-4-2, 5-4-2, 5-3-2 5-3-2-0 (That one is in DT Metropolis)
 
For a lot of this I’ve found really working on when to tighten and when to loosen the pick makes all the difference in sounding good at high speed.
 
TSJMajesty said:
I have been putting in the time, lots of time, especially this past year, but another problem that surfaces is, well, life.
I have said before, and I truly believe this, (and am pretty sure it's supported by science) that the younger you start, the faster you'll progress, because the younger you are, the more malleable your brain is, and thus, can more easily create those neural pathways.

But another reason why age isn't on your side, or rather, aging, is simply because when you're young, if you want to devote all your spare time towards guitar practice, you're pretty much free to do so (within certain limits of course.)

So even though I have more drive and perseverance now than I've ever had, since I have many other responsibilities, and the results come much slower than when I was younger, seeing the relatively low ROI (return on investment) kinda gets discouraging, and starts me thinking, maybe I'm realistically past the point where I can learn these certain solos and licks that I have on my "list," and it is what it is.

That's not to say I haven't impressed myself with the improvements I have made, it's just, maybe it's time to stop trying to improve my technique, and instead focus on becoming the most polished player I can be, with the tools I now have. Maybe. ;)
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I'd like to think with age we may become more nuanced and tasteful. I can't play anywhere
near the speed I could in my early to mid 20s when playing faster was a goal of mine.
I am pretty sure I am a better all around musician and guitarist than I was back then, though.

I'd even contend that my actual experience of playing in many different settings with different
musicians highlighted to me how infrequent a burst or flurry of speed is necessary in the context
of many songs. It has made me wonder how much of my quest to play fast when I was younger
was really just about my own ego, and my own insecurity.

Now playingf fast is not really anywhere near my top ten goals when it comes to guitar. I find a lot
of what I used to pursue and like in shredding to be self-indulgent and monotonous. I'd rather
come up with a cool and memorable riff, or a catchy melody, or a funky groove, than to play faster
than I can now.

Guess I have set my own limits and am simply holding myself back. Gonna go look for a Ted Talk to
find out how I can overcome those self-imposed limitations. :)
 
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TSJMajesty said:
Ex: Start on downstroke, all alt picking, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th strings, 5-4-2, 5-4-2, 5-3-2 5-3-2-0 (That one is in DT Metropolis)
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That lick is actually 32nd notes. I think he either meant to play chromatically on each string, or just 3 strings then A-G-F#-E on the E string.

(It ended up as g5-4-2-2 d5-4-2-2 a5-4-2 e5-4-2-0-0 both times for both tracks on the album but I doubt that was the idea. He plays 5-4-3-2 pretty clearly on the G, D & A strings on some live recordings.)
 
Bakerman said:
That lick is actually 32nd notes. I think he either meant to play chromatically on each string, or just 3 strings then A-G-F#-E on the E string.

(It ended up as g5-4-2-2 d5-4-2-2 a5-4-2 e5-4-2-0-0 both times for both tracks on the album but I doubt that was the idea. He plays 5-4-3-2 pretty clearly on the G, D & A strings on some live recordings.)
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I never listened to it close enough to hear the subdivisions, but after listening to the studio isolated track, I can indeed hear that it's 32nd notes, although I'm not hearing the passing tones on the g & d strings. It goes by so fast it's not like anyone would ever notice though (like I'm ever gonna play it live or with a band!) other than a guitarist, "eh, he didn't play that right." :rolleyes:
 
Ron_R said:
That's not altogether true. And it depends on what we're dealing with.

Your analogy is faulty because no fish can climb trees. And no human is a fish.

I remember reading about Golf and how it is the great equalizer. The theory was that if you trained as hard as Tiger Woods, since a young age like Tiger Woods, you can be as good as Tiger Woods at swinging a club. Now, that being said, his creativity around the golf course is why he was such a super star, and that can't necessarily be taught. You may not win as much as he did for that reason.

Just like there are loads of guitar players out there that can play as fast as EVH, Steve Vai, John Petrucci, etc. But that's not what made these artists so incredible. It's what they could create with the speed of hand movement. THAT'S where there difference lies.
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I need your help. Golf is my favorite sport. I read more about it at at golf tips and facts. Let me know where I can learn excellent golf tips and discover new activities in the area.
 
There may be people who have a certain genetic advantage that allows them to play faster,

but I think it's the least significant thing.

In the end, the common factor of all guitarists who play fast was the discipline of practicing and playing speed technique for a huge number of hours for example 8 or hours every day.

Paul Gilbert, Jason Becker, Yngwie, John Petrucci etc...


I think that if you practice speed exercises every day and gradually increase the bpm and learn songs that involve playing fast

over time if you stay consistent you will improve (the difficult thing is to have that discipline).
 
speaking of the genetic factor I vaguely recall an interview I read (before youtube days) with Joe Satriani commenting on how Steve Vai's tendons and fingers just were like endowed somehow. Not his words but that was the sentiment he expressed. On top of his crazy talent and dedication of course.
 
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