One more time: frfr vs amp old thing, sorry...

Two questions for you:

  1. What exactly is this "valve feeling" you refer to? Do you have the vocabulary to describe it in concrete terms that can be used to measure success? I mean, I'm not so sure you even know what it is (hint: try to define it without using subjective terms like "feeling", "vibe", "meatiness", "hair", "snarl", etc.; instead try to use audio processing terms that can be measured, like frequency, level, dynamic range, etc.)
  2. Do you know how tube amps produce this feeling you're missing? If you don't know the technical mechanisms by which physical amps deliver this feeling you like, I'm not sure how you'll ever get the Axe-FX to reproduce it for you outside of sheer blind luck.

1. This "valve feeling" is something that anyone who has played through a good valve amp know what it is. Sound is hard (almost impossible) to describe with words, it reminds me a well known producer in Spain who I've worked with. When doing recording sessions for him, he usually use expressions like "I like it with more sand", "Give me a yellow sound", go figure..
Anyway, I'll try: I think what I'm missing with frfr is a different kind of dynamics, a high end less harsh and the compressed sound that valves produce. That's why I think maybe compression is the key, or a combination of it with eq (I'm using the peq blocking and it works great).

2. I don't know which are the technical mechanisms of a tube amp. I think you don't need to know how a motor car works to enjoy your car. There are people who are really deep into this kind of knowledge, like Jay, but I just want the right tools to enjoy music, not to write a doctorate about it. Anyway, I'm learning a lot about how a valve amp works (maybe that's the price you have to pay to make the Axe works) and trying to apply it to the Axe.

LMO, thank you for the links. I had read the whole Jay Mitchell and the power of flat response thread, very interesting. I'm sure the Verve 12ma is a step up from the RCF 310a, but I need something more lightweight portable (maybe I'm asking too much, although Scott seems perfectly happy with the 8ma, and many people are with their 310a, so I think I should be).

It's all about what daveg621 is saying, with better words than I: there's a valve sound you are used to, and you want to reproduce it through the Axe + frfr. I'm not a tube snob: been playing with modellers since they came out, enjoy them, prefer them for multiple reasons to a tradidional tube rig, but I'd like to get the best from both worlds. I'm not asking too much, and I'm more than halfway there.

Just looking for some advice and experiences about this old and beaten subject. I'm sure it will also be useful for more Axe users. Thank you for all the advices!
 
When I first tried to recreate the sound of my Bassman there was something missing, not only with the tone but also with how it felt when playing. I set up a patch so that I could fade between the real bassman and the patch with an expression pedal, and spent the better part of an afternoon going back and forth tweaking the patch. When I finally got it right it not only sounded just like the real amp but felt like it as well, and it was a wow! moment. BTW, this was with the 310a and before attempting to EQ its frequency response.

My point is that recreating a specific amp sound can be a subtle thing and it takes some practice to understand what you are hearing. Of course your ears are likely much more attuned to all this than mine.
 
Johnny Guitar, I really think you ought to post up a recording of something you've done that represents a guitar amp sound that you like, and would like the Axe-Fx to replicate. It would also help immensely if you could share your best Axe-fx preset and/or settings, and share with us all any other pertinent information (what kind of guitar?).

I'll bet there are some forum members who would take the "Pepsi Challenge" and try to match your tone on their Axe-Fx, and share some of their secrets with you.
 
Hi guys. In the past days I experienced something interesting about the RCF 310A. I use to play live with 2 of them since a couple of years and I always thought some frequencies were missing. In my studio I have a couple of Dynaudio BM5A and my presets sound almost "right" into them. After working a little together with LMO on the RCF´s frequency response, I found that global EQ setting he suggested.. but still.. no way to match my presets created on the flatter studio monitors. I could be wrong but I always thought cheap solutions like the 310A are lacking on the high frequency part of the bi-amped design. For this reason I tried to recover or boost these frequencies.
Here´s what I´ve done, please give it a try and let me know what you think about:
- put a Filter block at the end of the chain that goes to the RCF´s.
- set it to Lowshelf type
- set the frequency to 1778 Hz (this is approximately the RCF´s crossover frequency)
- Q set to 0.502
- Gain -3 dB
- Level 1.7 dB
what I do is to let the tweeter work more than the woofer. In a way the woofer is working at half power (-3 dB) and the tweeter is still doing its job at nominal power. I could be fooled by some stranges artifacts but I hear the RCF flatter this way. The bandwidth is extended and the overal sound closer to my studio monitors.
 
VITHCPAT1, which FBT Verve are you using? If you prefer it to the Axe + Studiotone combination, that says something for me. Neither I'm trying to replicate exactly the sound of the Koch, just trying to get its "valve feeling", or however you want to call it.

Thank you for the suggestions!

I use a FBT Verve 12MA. I had to work on PEQ and cabs settings to find an equivalent dynamic to the one of the Koch. But I am really happy with the result even if it is a work in progress as I keep tweeking my patches...
 
I'm still trying to wrap my head around the concept of how the "feel" doesn't translate in headphones. If you aren't feeling the love under the microscope of headphone monitoring with all amp/cab sims enabled FRFR, then how can the OP expect to find happiness in the exterior amplified world of the more imperfect FRFR speaker systems (and low-mid priced prosumer ones at that)? I think this is just as much an Axe-Fx amp/speaker sim tweaking problem as it is an FRFR amp/speaker problem.

Has the OP tried listening through a quality tube power amp into a single 12" coaxial speaker loaded into an actual guitar cabinet? The tube amp may provide some of the "feel" response that is missing, while the coax in a guitar cabinet would help provide some of the performance "feel" of an actual guitar cabinet. This is far from a perfect FRFR solution, and flies in the face of the fact that all of the qualities needed to achieve an accurate tube amp combo simulation already live within the programming of the Axe-Fx. But in the real world, tube amp combos are highly imperfect, technically speaking. The combination just happens to sound pleasant to our ears.
 
Jimfist, when I said I don't feel what I want to feel through headphones or monitors, I meant that "valve feeling" (strange description, I know) I get with a tube amp. That's the way it must be, because a studio monitor or a headphone can never give what an tube amp give, but what a miced tube amp gives, and I'm ok with that. In fact, I'm happier than ever with my recorded tones. I only miss that thing when I try to emulate the tube amp with a frfr powered speaker. Amp/speaker sim tweaking problem or FRFR problem? That's what I'm trying to discover. Once I've discovered it, it'll be easier to fix.

I haven't listened Axe through a quality tube power amp into a single 12" coaxial speaker loaded into a guitar cabinet. That's, without the coaxial speaker, the description of the Atomic, isn't it? I'd like to stay away from valves, if that's possible. If not, I'll give it a try.

About posting a recording of Axe and Koch tones: I may be wrong, but the recorded tones still wouldn't be showing what I'm trying to achieve live with the 310a. Surely they both would sound good, but still they would be one miced amp and one simulation of a miced amp. Anyway, here's an old demo I did with three slightly modified factory presets, this kind of sounds are good enough for me: Juan Garrandés myspace

Thank you for the tip about the filter, Enzo, it makes a subtle difference in sound but more of a pleasant thing to my ears, specially in the high frequencies. I think I'm almost "there" with the 310a for live sound.

Here's more information and a clean patch: my guitar is a Strat Plus Deluxe with two Lace Sensor and a JB humbucker (bridge). I play this patch with the 2nd strat position (bridge + middle), but I have another Strat with Noiseless and it works too (thinner tone with this one). Axe input at 3:00, output at 12:00, 310a volume at 12:00. Global eq flat, and two overdrive blocks, one crunchier (tube driver) and the other one more distorted but not too much ( T808 ). Subtle chorus and reverb. Peq with highs blocked and the filter from Mr. Sutera at the end of the chain.

It would be great if any of you with the 310a try it and let me know your thoughts (or with another frfr).
 

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Ok, Johnny. I've prodded you enough on this. I'll happily beg off this thread while other with much more knowledge offer their help.
 
I use a FBT Verve 12MA. I had to work on PEQ and cabs settings to find an equivalent dynamic to the one of the Koch. But I am really happy with the result even if it is a work in progress as I keep tweeking my patches...

Hey, Vitchpatch1, would you mind elaborating on what you have done to make the 12mA's sound better to you? I'm still struggling (after owning two 12mA's for quite a while), and I'd like to learn from others. What PEQ settings and what cab models/settings work well for you? The Koch is one good-sounding machine, and if you were able to get close to that with the Verves, that's great! Would you upload a preset?
 
Hey, Vitchpatch1, would you mind elaborating on what you have done to make the 12mA's sound better to you? I'm still struggling (after owning two 12mA's for quite a while), and I'd like to learn from others. What PEQ settings and what cab models/settings work well for you? The Koch is one good-sounding machine, and if you were able to get close to that with the Verves, that's great! Would you upload a preset?

Sure. I did not try to replicate the Koch but here are my main patches, clean (brownface), crunch and lead (Mesa MIV). Check out the settings with Axe edit (mono settings and global EQ flat). Not sure how this will sound with your gear but I use those live with my band and it fit well in the mix.
Best
Pat
 

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For me, the cone speaker is the biggest difference in feel from FR cabs. It does automatically feel more 'in the room" for me. However, I really miss the modeled cabs when I'm going through cones.. Nothing like the brownface model in the 15"blues cab sim for that Srv thang. When I go through a celstion cab it's just not the same even after eqing although I can certainly make it work. Everything is a compromise but I must say overall that I love the flexibility of FR and cab sims the most. I'm used to playing in the studio and listening through the monitors since I've been doing it for so long.
 
I'm still trying to wrap my head around the concept of how the "feel" doesn't translate in headphones. If you aren't feeling the love under the microscope of headphone monitoring with all amp/cab sims enabled FRFR, then how can the OP expect to find happiness in the exterior amplified world of the more imperfect FRFR speaker systems (and low-mid priced prosumer ones at that)?
The thing that's missing when you're listening through headphones is feedback. Not just the squealing, howling feedback we love to play with, but the sweet, sustaining feedback that sounds exactly like your "headphone" tone, but is more responsive — it doesn't sound like what we normally think of as feedback. It makes it feel more like you're playing a trumpet, an organ, or another instrument that can maintian a constant level without decay.

That comes from the guitar and strings responding to the sound that's coming from the speakers. At very low volumes, it's not there. As you increase the volume, you start to notice it more and more. With electric guitars, you can't miss it. I don't know how much difference it makes with bass.

But if you turn off the speakers and listen only through headphones, the speaker-to-guitar acoustic connection is broken, and the feel changes significantly.
 
yes, of course you are correct about that, Rex.

Depending on how loud the amp is and proximity to the guitar (pickups) probably dictates how much impact that "feedback" will make on a recording, but certainly it has a huge impact on the guitarist's performance with respect to the fact that the guitar and amp are necessarily interacting with each other to create something that responds differently than simple headphone monitoring without the above mentioned "feedback".

My guess was that this was a moot point since the OP seems to be less than fully satisfied with something regardless of his means of monitoring.

here's an old demo I did with three slightly modified factory presets, this kind of sounds are good enough for me: Juan Garrandés myspace

Johnny, I listened to your Myspace audio clips and I was very impressed with your musicianship. Thought the sound was pretty damned good, too. The fact that you feel it should be better is an attribute.
 
Rex has explained the headphones thing so much better than me. I should have called it interaction or speaker to guitar connection. It's like the feeling you get when playing an acoustic piano compared to a piano syntheziser or plugin: the sound is there, but the feeling is different.

Jimfist, thanks for your kind words. That bluesy demos were made on a hurry because I needed a myspace url for the spanish Axe advertisement. For recording, Axe is unbeatable.

Regarding the original matter of the thread, I've been tweaking all the weekend, trying different volumes, eqs, compression settings, filters, and gradually I'm getting to where I wanted to be. I think maybe I'm thinking too much before trying other frfr solutions, but I'd like to give the RCF one more try because its weight and price seems perfect for me.
 
Depending on how loud the amp is and proximity to the guitar (pickups) probably dictates how much impact that "feedback" will make on a recording, but certainly it has a huge impact on the guitarist's performance with respect to the fact that the guitar and amp are necessarily interacting with each other to create something that responds differently than simple headphone monitoring without the above mentioned "feedback".
Exactly. Volume, proximity of the strings and guitar to the speaker, reflections from the room...not so much the distance between pickups and speaker; if that makes a difference, you've got a microphonic pickup.
 
Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm starting to think that my RCF may be defective.

Mine hiss a lot, like a real amp, and although the return policy has expired, I may try to return it and buy other powered speaker.

Any of you with the 310a have noticed a loud hiss, even with all cables disconnected?
 
I had the 310a's for a few weeks before I swapped them out for a single 312a. I don't recall hearing hiss out of any of them. I also have no complaints on the sound of the 312. It was the right move for me.
 
Finally I've come to a conclusion: maybe I'm asking too much from this small and not very expensive RCF.

I already have great tone with the Axe in front of my amp or in its loop's return. I've been trying for hours and hours to achieve the same through my frfr RCF, just to use the acoustic guitar through the same system, and to be able to use the amp and cab sims.

It can be achieved, I'm sure, but I don't want to pay the price for it: buying expensive or heavy frfr powered speakers. I want something cheap, lightweight, and equal to the better class A amp I've ever had. Come on! I'm tempted by the Verve 8ma, but after the RCF experience, I'll give myself a break.

Someone said "life's too short to have bad tone". Probably I'll try again the frfr route in the future, but for now I'll go with the best tone I've ever had: Studiotone + Axe. Heavenly!

Thank you all for the suggestions and comments!
 
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