One more piece of the puzzle to be solved, thinness of individual notes

trancegodz

trancegodz

Fractal Fanatic
I’m thrilled about the new firmware and new Axe Edit. Best to date. So I am not slamming the Axe FX. I love it. However, there is still one missing link that still needs to be solved. When playing separate strings and notes on the Axe FXII the sound is much thinner than on the real amp counterparts. You can hear is most on clean presets. It is hard to describe, you have to compare them side by side and it will be obvious to anyone with ears. I tried it through QSC-K12,s QSC-K10s, JBLPRX612ms, Xitones, CLRs, Yamaha studio monitors, Event studio monitors, and hear the same thing in all of them, so it’s not what the Axe is being played through. It's also not the amp in the room effect.

It sounds almost like the difference between using huge strings on a Stratocaster vs using the extra slinkys. Or like playing an open E note on the first string vs playing the same pitch E note on the second, third, or fourth string when it sounds thicker.

I play vintage Stratocasters mainly. Some of my favorite amps in the Axe are the Plexis, Hiwatts, Vox AC 30’s, 59 Bassman, and Super Reverb. I have all of these actual amps and compared them all to their counterparts in the Axe FXII. They all sound the best they have ever sounded with the new firmware. Pretty much dead on with the exception of single notes sounding thinner. The difference can be heard when playing single notes on separate strings using clean tones. You can barely hear it using distorted presets. You can’t hear it playing chords on clean tones, just on single notes.

What I am talking about is subtle. Many of you may not even hear it, but I am pretty sure Cliff will be able to hear it easily if he listens for it. Once he hears it, he will eventually solve this last piece of the puzzle like he has every thing else.

Listen to the studio version of Little Wing by Jimi Hendrix and try to match that sound exactly on the Axe FXII. You can get it the basic tone, but single notes played on separate strings will be much thinner sounding on the Axe FX than if you match that sound with the real amp.

So my question is:

Are there advanced parameters in the Axe FXII that could be tweaked to correct this? If so what are they and what settings do you suggest? The obvious things like Para EQs and compressors are not totally solving this.

Once again, I am not slamming the Axe FXII. I love it, and recommend it to everyone. I'm just trying to solve this last piece of the tone puzzle.
 
If this is on clean tones, then you're probably describing tone balance and not overdrive effects.

Are you sure both scenarios have a similar balance of low, low-mids, mids, high-mids and highs? Thin sounds is usually not enough mids and/or lows.

It could possibly also be a dynamic effect, if your real amp has a lot of cleanish compression and your AxeFX settings don't.
 
... and I always get nice fat screaming tones by picking more aggressively then softer for the chord melodies. Easy to a hive with any clean amp and a BB Pre or RC booster, etc. maybe many more ways to archive this that more experienced Axe users can share.
 
Would you not use a booster or compressor at the front of the chain to fatten up the notes a little?

Those pedals were invented in the first place for guitarists using real amps who faced the same issues.
 
I must say, recently Ive noticed the same as the OP.

Plaing next to our other guitarist running as Strat straight into a Fender Delux Reverb - my Tele sounds very thin when playing single note runs. I dont notice playing on my own - but in next to him, and in a band mix it does stand out.

FWIW Im using either the Badger 18 or 59 Bassman with some drive (so not just clean) - and run amp/cab, so its not the cab sims.
 
trancegodz said:
so it’s not what the Axe is being played through. It's also not the amp in the room effect
Click to expand...

It doesn't appear that you are comparing the Axe to a recording of your real amps and, on that basis, I suspect it actually is both of those things mentioned above. Banana's and grapes maybe?
 
Actually I was comparing my real Plexi, Hiwatt, 59 Bassman, Vox AC30, and Super Reverb amps to the same amps and cab in the Axe FXII.
I set the tone controls on the Axe FX to the same settings I use regularly on the real amps, and used an A/B box to switch back and forth to compare them.

I compared them at the same volumes and was the same distance from what I was playing them through. I was shocked to hear how much thicker individual notes were on the real amps compared to the Axe FX. If you don't own the real amps to compare directly you would likely never hear what I am talking about. It is subtle, but it is there.

My only reason for bringing it up is because Cliff is constantly improving the Axe FXII. When anything that is brought to his attention that he feels is legitimate and relevant he improves it. He has done it over and over since I bought the Axe. It just keeps getting better.

The other reason is the possibility that some of the power users might understand the advanced features better than I do and might be able to explain how to correct this with some of the advanced features.
 
I thought so, in which case it is a case of what you are playing it through. What cab's are you playing through when using the Axe - the same as when you play the real amps, or are you using an IR? If the former, it is the amp you use with the Axe, if the latter, it is the amp, the cab or both.

I've done similar A/B exercises with my amps and the USA clean through a Retro Channel power amp into a real cab sounds remarkably similar to my Mesa MkV through the same cab. Same with the Plexi model compared to my YJM - I'm actually preferring the jumpered Plexi 100 in FW 11. I have two identical cabs so I can switch quickly from one to the other and the only variable then is the amp. When I use my Matrix GT1000FX, I would agree that it doesn't feel as close and feels less amp like - at this point, I'll now get told that I don't know how to dial my Axe in properly. ;)

The only one I can't quite reach yet is my Two Rock 10th Anniversary, but most real amps I've tried can't get close to that one either.
 
Show some love to the preamp dynamics parameter - make the time constant a little higher and turn in approx. 30% of it....turn up the preamp bias to -0.1 or even centered. Experiment with triode hardness too....all together makes your sound thicker and more stable.
 
PacoCasanovas said:
Show some love to the preamp dynamics parameter - make the time constant a little higher and turn in approx. 30% of it....turn up the preamp bias to -0.1 or even centered. Experiment with triode hardness too....all together makes your sound thicker and more stable.
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Thanks Paco! I'll try that over the weekend. I'm not really sure what a lot of the advanced amp parameters do yet.

I was wondering if input impedance, or input level might make a difference in the thinness and thickness of individual clean notes.
I have not experimented with input impedance at all yet. I just left it set to whatever is the factory default.
 
There are several factors here in comparing, If you are using an IR and FR . Try recording the amp ,make an IR of the amp speaker with same settings, tone match it then compare recordings. Or mic your amp and play it back through any of the FR's or monitors and it won't sound the same either! Also two amps of the same make won't sound or react exactly the same at the same settings either ? The feel factor also! I think finding the right parameters and tweaking them a bit will get you there!
 
you say it's not the amp in the room but you are comparing the axe through frfr with an amp in the room....unless i'm reading your post wrong. if i am, my apologies.
 
When you're playing Hendrix, tone comes from the fingers! Dig in! :encouragement:
 
I tried it through QSC-K12,s QSC-K10s, JBLPRX612ms, Xitones, CLRs, Yamaha studio monitors, Event studio monitors, and hear the same thing in all of them, so it’s not what the Axe is being played through. It's also not the amp in the room effect.
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but isn't it"?
I notice the same thing when I switch back and forth between my studio monitors and then to output 2 through a tube power amp and a regular guitar cab.
I've tried most of those FRFR speakers on your list and found the exact same thing.
My guitars single notes sound much fuller and more responsive through a real guitar cab than through an FRFR speaker. This latest firmware really makes playing through Cab Ir's much better but
when you switch away to a regular cab I notice it right away.
so IMO it's not the Axe Fx itself, it's the FRFR speakers.
 
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As many have tried to point out already,

You dismiss it as not being the difference in monitors or the "amp in the room effect" because you tried a dozen different monitor solutions. Yet none of them is an amp and cab, meaning that your logic is flawed. You can try 1000 different FRFR or studio monitor solutions, even 2000, none is going to sound like an amp and cab. So your comparison is out the window.

The entire point is that the sound you're hearing from the FRFR speakers and the Axe is the sound of the amp, with a mic, sent back through monitors. IE - what you'd hear in a control room with the amp in a different room. With your amp, you're just hearing the amp in the room. No mic, no monitors. So if you truly want to A/B them, you need to mic your amp, isolate it, and monitor it through the same monitors you're listening to the Axe FX on. THEN you're comparing apples and apples. And you'll likely notice your amp doesn't sound "right" anymore either.

[edit] - Just to add, many times guitarist aren't familiar with the sound of their own rigs on tape. Many times I've seen guitarists freaked out in the studio after hearing their guitar rig on tape or through the control room monitors. "That's not my sound!!!". Because while an amp in the room sounds heavier and more fierce as you add volume and distortion, on tape it simply makes you sound thinner, more compressed, and weak.
 
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Not to put too fine a point on it, but compression does anything BUT make things sound thin and weak.

Regarding the FRFR vice live amp argument... if the emulation is good (and it is), and the IR's are good (and many are), then you should be able to garner most of the experience of the amp, with the possible exception of the visceral 'moving of air'. I say this as a user who has a pair of FRFR's (RCF) and a Marshall 1960a in the corner.

Now, all of that said, I too have experienced the referred to thinness in the upper register, especially in some of the cleaner settings. I don't know what to attribute this to - I'm not afraid of a bit of gain or some compression, but I noted in a band setting that some of the higher notes don't sound as beefy as I would hope they would.
 
plyall said:
Not to put too fine a point on it, but compression does anything BUT make things sound thin and weak.

Regarding the FRFR vice live amp argument... if the emulation is good (and it is), and the IR's are good (and many are), then you should be able to garner most of the experience of the amp
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I'm sorry, but I have to thoroughly disagree with both of these statements in a very emphatic manner. Your first point is just incorrect. The very nature of compression decreases dynamic range, thus making notes sound "thinner". A comp pedal is nice as it boosts your dry signal, allowing it to compress before hitting the amp thus giving it a consistent signal to shape. However a distorted guitar tone is already compressed to a point. Adding more compression after the fact (or more saturation) will destroy your dynamics and make your tone sound thin and lifeless (why do you think the compressor is always found in front of the amp?). Engineers typically do NOT add compression to wet guitars.

Your second point is equally inaccurate. An amp cabinet has different directionality, couples with it's surroundings differently, and resonates differently. It's the reason most guitarist notice a difference between guitar modelers and a real amp, and is the reason for guitarist being disappointed hearing their own tones played back to them as I describe. Add in the mic being captured in that IR, adding another layer of EQ, in essence, and things are very different. Can you dial in the same sound? Yes. Does that mean they sound the same? No. Again, apples and grapes.
 
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plyall said:
compression does anything BUT make things sound thin and weak...
Now, all of that said, I too have experienced the referred to thinness in the upper register, especially in some of the cleaner settings. I don't know what to attribute this to - I'm not afraid of a bit of gain or some compression,
Click to expand...

It's attributed to your misunderstanding of how gain and compression effect your tone in a mix. Not trying to be rude - I'm trying to be helpful.
 
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