On the fence... again

A

Alfi27

Member
Hi guys,

Quite the strange topic, I know. I'll try to keep it short, I have been on and off digital/tube amps close to half a decade, and after a while the issues with either always start to annoy me. This time though, I am not planning on selling my tube amp (a Ceriatone 2204) as it's the single best amp I have ever played, but the thing is so damn heavy... Not very heavy for a tube amp (15kg/33lbs), but certainly too heavy to bring on a plane and transport around a city without a car. I'm studying in the UK, my amp is in Norway and I don't have a car in the UK. To be honest, I am considering both the AX8 and Atomic Amplifire, obviously I'm not expecting that the majority will route for the AA, but any experiences would be welcomed!

I'll get on with the questions:

- If I get rid of my Strymon Flint and El Capistan, will the AX8 be able to replicate them both and work well with the 4CM method NOT in the loop, but after a Suhr Reactive load going directly to the AX8 and then to an audio interface or FOH? And obviously also working as an IR loader.

- How does the AX8 take drive pedals, in terms of boosting? I have a JHS Bonsai (using the JHS Strong mod 99% of the time) and RYRA the Klone that are fabulous pedals, but I have never experienced any modeller taking pedals as well as a tube amp. And equally the other way around, used with the 4CM, will the AX8 be able to boost a tube amp in the same manner as real pedals?

- This one goes more towards the Amplifire if anyone has tried it like that; can it work as a pedal platform for let's say my Bogner La Grange? It would obviously not make any sense to use the AX8 like this, but with the new Ampli-Firebox it could turn my pedalboard into a complete rig going straight to the FOH.

I hate the sound of a real cab straight to my ears, I have to use my custom molded ear protection even if I don't play loud just to filter out the nasty fizz, which is very strange considering that two years ago or so I chose the powered Kemper because I couldn't stand the FR profiles, and I used it with a cab all the time... Things really do change.

Now I play my 2204 with the Reactive Load, an IR loader and my in ear monitors and I seriously cannot stand playing it through anything else than that. Wedge monitors, cabs, everything just sounds thin and fizzy to me no matter what. And yes, I have owned an Atomic CLR... Recorded guitar tones certainly can and do sound great through other things, I guess my guitars are just so loud acoustically that I need the IEMs to filter that out.

My main issue with modellers has always been kind of stupid, but here goes: it felt like driving a Ferrari in 40 km/h all the time, because I never took advantage of more than 30% tops of what the unit could do... I have always been a guitar straight to the amp kind of guy, and I hate having gear or anything laying around that I don't use or have use for, but after I got the Strymons I have started to experiment more with effects. So there's a pretty good chance that the AX8 would not be like that, this time. But the main reason I'm considering it, is of course to have a great tone without having to get an Uber everytime I'm leaving the house.

As much objectivity as possible would be appreciated, of course, but I realise that I am on the Fractal forum.

Sorry for the novel, hope some of you have some wise words for me! Cheers.
 
– It can replace both units. This is just a matter of whether you prefer the UI of AX8 or Strymons. Sure you will have to replicate the patches with AX8, but if you don't use many it won't take long. You can use AX8 straight to FOH.

– AX8 takes and emulates drive pedals beautifully. It might even replace some of your real ones depending what you use and what you prefer. (https://wiki.fractalaudio.com/axefx2/index.php?title=Drive_block)

– Yes. You can use the scene feature to do this (https://wiki.fractalaudio.com/axefx2/index.php?title=Scenes)

– It looks like you've either had 1) bad 2) too bright IR's 3) lack of post-EQ for the IR's. For live use you usually have to high cut between 5000-9000hz depending on your IR's. This is because close-miked cabinets will boost both low and high frequencies. It's really common and isn't a problem with digital hardware. If your ears are still hurting, change the IR. (https://wiki.fractalaudio.com/axefx2/index.php?title=Cab_block_and_IRs)

To sum up: AX8 is or can be the perfect product for you. It fits in a laptop bag and can cover anything you mentioned and much more. And be sure not to sell your amp! It's always nice to blow off the dust from your analog amps from time to time and to use it as a reference since you have the reactive load.
 
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Let's be clear - the Ax8 will replace everything you got. No need for drive pedals. Check out the many videos comparing the best amps in the world to the Ax8. You really can't tell the difference. You don't even need a speaker cab. You can run direct and hear yourself in a monitor. Easiest and best sounding rig I have ever had in over 30 years of steady gigging. Buy it, learn it and enjoy it, enough said. If you really don't like it (highly doubtful) then you can easily sell it and go back to breaking your back with tube amps. Good luck.
 
Thanks guys. Just to clarify @aens , when I'm talking about having to use ear protection I'm talking about real cabs, not IRs. IRs just doesn't sound as good through monitors or other speakers as they do through my in ears, and they sound absolutely stunning through the in ears and also recorded through almost any speaker, so I know it's not the IR. I do use lowpass filters all the time, as well.

What I'm worried about with the drive pedals is that the Bonsai taught me that I don't really like stock Tubescreamers; they have this warm low mid-focused tone that is great for greasy blues leads, but not heavy rock... The drive models do have deeper editing parameters I assume? Probably depends a lot on the amp as well, though. But then again, with an AX8 I don't really have to use boost pedals like that, I could just go from a JCM800 for rhythm to a Friedman HBE for leads. And to be honest, I do prefer pure amp distiortion to pedals any day of the week.

Then there's the question about feel, response and all of that stuff. The Kemper really bothered me because no humbucker guitars sounded right, they were all super dark and dull and my single coil Tele sounded like I expected a humbucker to. Now that I have gone back to a real amp, I have sold off all but my humbucker guitars. In terms of clean up and pick attack it did feel natural enough, but I do notice a difference compared to a real amp. I realise that there will always be a certain amount of compromise with modellers, whether it's psychological or not it will never be 100% the same, but like @curious said it's probably worth it not having to break my back and not wasting my entire treatment for tendonitis/tennis elbow. If I end up getting it, I will buy it new from G66 so I have 30 days to decide whether I love it or not, and there is a possibility that I can try it out against both my beloved 2204 and an Amplifire this weekend, which I really hope will go through...

A final thought: With the Helix, I spent a week, six hours a day tweaking and probably playing a total of five minutes, which was really sickening... I know I can tweak the AX8 to the moon and back, but do I have to, to make it sound great? With the Helix I had to tweak it to make it sound half decent, it wasn't a matter of exploring new tonal ground.

Fun fact: the amp/preamp I have kept around the longest ever, counting both digital and tube, is the very first Axe FX Standard. And I didn't sell it because i was unhappy with it; having a rack unit without an actual rack is annoying when you're gonna bring it somewhere, so I was torn between the Helix and the AX8. The AX8 was still in the preorder phase and I being the mega impatient creature that I am, I went with the Helix - and was super disappointed... The Axe absolutely whiped the floor with it, but luckily I managed to exchange the Helix for a Kemper. That being said, my preferences and not to mention knowledge back then, were insanely different from now.
 
You can really deep edit the drive pedals. There are some guys around here matching the drive block to replace pedals they love.

As for the tweaking, maybe a little story from myself:
I have this one sound. It's basically a Engl Powerball, but warmer and with more mids (had an E646, the voicing is different from a Powerball).
So, using the Energyball amp, I really tweaked everything until I got the tone I wanted and heard in A/B listening.
After that, for a different aong I imagined a nice 80s metalish sound. Picked the JCM800#34 model, just played with Presence, Bass, Mids and Treble and got instant the tone I was looking for.
What I want to show with that example:
You can match A/B if you want, but the Amps are basically so good I would have gone better with sticking to another model and play instead of tweaking to the core.
 
Alfi27 said:
Thanks guys. Just to clarify @aens , when I'm talking about having to use ear protection I'm talking about real cabs, not IRs. IRs just doesn't sound as good through monitors or other speakers as they do through my in ears, and they sound absolutely stunning through the in ears and also recorded through almost any speaker, so I know it's not the IR. I do use lowpass filters all the time, as well.
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Ah, sorry! So you have this part covered already. Most of the monitors are not flat response, which means the have different voicings (stage monitors being mostly voiced for vocals), so they might color your sound in a not complimentary way. There's a global EQ inside the unit to fix the sound going to the FOH or stage monitors if this becomes an issue.

What I'm worried about with the drive pedals is that the Bonsai taught me that I don't really like stock Tubescreamers; they have this warm low mid-focused tone that is great for greasy blues leads, but not heavy rock... The drive models do have deeper editing parameters I assume? Probably depends a lot on the amp as well, though. But then again, with an AX8 I don't really have to use boost pedals like that, I could just go from a JCM800 for rhythm to a Friedman HBE for leads. And to be honest, I do prefer pure amp distiortion to pedals any day of the week.
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There's plenty of drive models inside the unit all with deeper editing parameters. I wouldn't worry about this if you prefer amp distortion. You can just stick to the amp models if you want.

Then there's the question about feel, response and all of that stuff. The Kemper really bothered me because no humbucker guitars sounded right, they were all super dark and dull and my single coil Tele sounded like I expected a humbucker to. Now that I have gone back to a real amp, I have sold off all but my humbucker guitars. In terms of clean up and pick attack it did feel natural enough, but I do notice a difference compared to a real amp. I realise that there will always be a certain amount of compromise with modellers, whether it's psychological or not it will never be 100% the same, but like @curious said it's probably worth it not having to break my back and not wasting my entire treatment for tendonitis/tennis elbow. If I end up getting it, I will buy it new from G66 so I have 30 days to decide whether I love it or not, and there is a possibility that I can try it out against both my beloved 2204 and an Amplifire this weekend, which I really hope will go through...
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I'm pretty sure you'll be amazed by the quality of amps inside Fractal. A few of the most common things you hear about amp models in Fractals is how they emphasize the character of different guitars (in a good way). You are right about amp modelers and real amps not being the same because they're not. Making compromises is another thing. You also make compromises with real amps. It's all about preference and what suits you best. It's hard to force yourself to be happy with something if you really are not.

A final thought: With the Helix, I spent a week, six hours a day tweaking and probably playing a total of five minutes, which was really sickening... I know I can tweak the AX8 to the moon and back, but do I have to, to make it sound great? With the Helix I had to tweak it to make it sound half decent, it wasn't a matter of exploring new tonal ground.
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I'm pretty sure AX8 will sound better and more ready out of the box compared to the other products. There's plenty of amazing videos in Youtube about tweaking the unit if you want to take the quick route (shoutout to @2112 aka Leon Todd): https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJ2NORIYLYH42g-CTKRciMs8QkzIPjT_e

Fun fact: the amp/preamp I have kept around the longest ever, counting both digital and tube, is the very first Axe FX Standard. And I didn't sell it because i was unhappy with it; having a rack unit without an actual rack is annoying when you're gonna bring it somewhere, so I was torn between the Helix and the AX8. The AX8 was still in the preorder phase and I being the mega impatient creature that I am, I went with the Helix - and was super disappointed... The Axe absolutely whiped the floor with it, but luckily I managed to exchange the Helix for a Kemper. That being said, my preferences and not to mention knowledge back then, were insanely different from now.
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You must try the AX8 if you have tried the very first model! You'll be amazed how far things have gone from that...
 
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I just got my AX8, but before I got it I played around with the demo of the helix native. I found in helix things are not intuitive at all. All sliders for everything, and the controls are not the same as the app a lot of the time. Like the mark iv in helix only has one gain!!

AX8 edit is awesome, and the main reason I went with the ax8 is the dedicated controls on the unit. If I want to tweak the basic sound there are knobs I can turn no computer needed.

Since I just got my AX8 I’m still completely in the honeymoon phase, but I made a few simple presets of amps I used to have, set the controls where I would have them on the real amp, then I went through all the cabs, and some red wires IRs I had from way back. The IRs have come a long way. Overall within 30 min of plugging in I had a rockin sound. Most of that 30 min was going through the factory presets which were pretty disappointing overall. After about 20 min I decided to start from scratch and make a 5153 patch, and bam, awesome tone.
 
I had also spent too much time tweaking with previous MFX brands for not entirely satisfactory results. For me, the AX8 was inspiring from the get go, and as of v10 is usefully close to perfect. Something this well done has facilitated exploration, sometimes to distraction, but that's on me and not as a shortcoming of the device.

The AX8 is capable of optimal configuration into actual speakers or with IRs and FRFR. Most of the advanced parameters I don't touch: but there are a few that are worth my while: Once the obvious amp adjustments are made: go to the Spkr Drv parameters in the Amp Block for the final flourish of dialing to taste how the speaker or IR responds to the virtual power amp load. Turn Speaker Comp parameter down or off for maximum clean dynamics, or crank that up to 3-5 (whatever sounds right to your ear) for speaker compression of heavily distorted leads. The Speaker Drive is helpful for adjusting how hard the signal appears to hit the speaker, and the Motor Time Const will nuance how quickly the speaker recovers and to some extent how it renders transients: This works not just with IR, but an actual guitar cab speaker (cab block off) can go so far as to sound like its being driven hard even at a bedroom volumes. These parameters have a subtle but amazing versatility in optimizing what you hear from the speaker.

Drive Pedals sound great, and allow extensive adjustment, if that wasn't enough, I've been able to modify something to do whatever I was after: (for example) Swapping in a germanium transistor in a Rat or Timmy for an entirely different texture.

As far as feel: the sag parameter will loosen or tighten that up. Along with the choice of amp model, gain staging and IR: there is some flexibility in the character of pick attack and how much an amp model cleans up with volume knob, which varies according to amp model and so on. Not that you have to get into all this to get the AX8 to sound great, and it shouldn't take hours of tweaking to get there, but if you dig deeper, refinements are available.
 
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Honestly , you can order the AX8 and have 15 days to return it. With the knowledgeable people on this forum and the huge amount of videos on youtube , you will easily know if this will do what you want in those 15 days. I have the AA3 , and use it as a backup only , the AA3 is really good for what it is, ( limited amps and effects) however , the tweaking required and interface are just ok.

When I went to the AX8 it was night and day , especially if you like to use effects. No pedalboard required. Tones are simply fantastic and easily / quickly changed from front panel or AXE-Edit interface. It is more expensive sure , but well worth the offset based on features and tone. I use a JHS @ pedal into effects loop and it works great. I have not tried 4CM yet so I dont have experience there.

As far as support goes , the AX8 is by far one of the best companies I have worked with. Just take a look at the effort and response during the v10 beta and release on this forum. You will never get that kind of response or firmware upgrades from Atomic. The company is basically 2 people IIRC.

Anyway , try it free for 15 days , thats my recommendation. :)
 
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