Ok, I ordered, now come some questions

[JES]

Thanks. I’m not at all worried about the interface. I edited MIDI rack units in the 90s so this will be easy. Love the flexibility.

 

[jeffutter]

I will be using my FM9 with a full range instrument--so sort of like playing bass and guitar at the same time.

Not answering any of your questions but, can I ask what instrument? I’m quite curious.

 

[JES]

8-string Touch guitar. I play custom instruments but there’s Touch Guitars, Warr Guitar and of course Chapman Stick. I have one made by MF ( a Montreal luthier) based on a Touch Guitars T8 with some modifications, and one made by Martin Keith. Here is the Keith:




My tuning is Bb0 (half step down from 5-string bass low B) FCGDACD4( a step below high E of guitar).

I‘d originally planned to try a biamp sort of setup with the FM9: parallel paths with a bass amp and a guitar amp and different effects on each. But I realized (reading Yek’s guides) that there may be phase issues if I don’t have the same blocks in each path. We will see once it arrives.

 

[jeffutter]

8-string Touch guitar. I play custom instruments but there’s Touch Guitars, Warr Guitar and of course Chapman Stick. I have one made by MF ( a Montreal luthier) based on a Touch Guitars T8 with some modifications, and one made by Martin Keith. Here is the Keith:

View attachment 107809
View attachment 107810

My tuning is Bb0 (half step down from 5-string bass low B) FCGDACD4( a step below high E of guitar).

I‘d originally planned to try a biamp sort of setup with the FM9: parallel paths with a bass amp and a guitar amp and different effects on each. But I realized (reading Yek’s guides) that there may be phase issues if I don’t have the same blocks in each path. We will see once it arrives.

Wow that’s super cool! When I was younger I wanted a Chapman Stick so bad so I could eventually play for Blue Man group

My current obsession is Hybrid Guitars Co’s 7 strings. I don’t own one (yet) but I’ve gone as far as stringing my 6-string ADGdgb and using a submarine pickup through an octave pedal for the low strings. I’ve since ditched that setup and just went back to normal guitar - but it would be good to hear your experience if you do end up trying out a dual signal path setup on the FM9

 

[JES]

It arrived! And holy crap am I impressed.

I have some n00b programming questions. I'm sure there will be more.

Let's say I'm running a preset with a parallel path for pitch delay. My goal is that the main path remains the same volume no matter what, and the 100% wet parallel path comes in when I turn on the delay (so the overall level goes up).

Most of the preset is on row 3, with it shunting to row 2 for the delay, and then back to row 3 with a mixer block.

Am I right that I set bypass on the parallel delay patch to "mute block" input and then use a mixer to mix levels? Or is it better to route row 2 to output 1 as well and not mix them back together? I feel like there's a bit of a drop when I switch to the scene with the parallel delay.

Preset with a pitch delay attached. TIA.

EDIT: I realized I have another question. Is there a clever routing solution so that I can put a block in one place or another in a signal chain in the same preset? Specifically, I would sometimes want the Pitch block before overdrive and fuzz and in series. But sometimes, I'd want it in parallel and after those things if I'm using a pitch delay. Obviously, the solution is two different presets, but is there a clever way to move a block around between scenes using mixers, shunts, etc?

 

[unix-guy]

It arrived! And holy crap am I impressed.

I have some n00b programming questions. I'm sure there will be more.

Let's say I'm running a preset with a parallel path for pitch delay. My goal is that the main path remains the same volume no matter what, and the 100% wet parallel path comes in when I turn on the delay (so the overall level goes up).

Most of the preset is on row 3, with it shunting to row 2 for the delay, and then back to row 3 with a mixer block.

Am I right that I set bypass on the parallel delay patch to "mute block" input and then use a mixer to mix levels? Or is it better to route row 2 to output 1 as well and not mix them back together? I feel like there's a bit of a drop when I switch to the scene with the parallel delay.

Preset with a pitch delay attached. TIA.

EDIT: I realized I have another question. Is there a clever routing solution so that I can put a block in one place or another in a signal chain in the same preset? Specifically, I would sometimes want the Pitch block before overdrive and fuzz and in series. But sometimes, I'd want it in parallel and after those things if I'm using a pitch delay. Obviously, the solution is two different presets, but is there a clever way to move a block around between scenes using mixers, shunts, etc?

When adding blocks like Delay or Reverb in parallel you want to set Mix to 100% and use Level or Input Gain to control the mix. You can use Mute FX In or Out depending on the behavior you want for delay trails.

You don't need the Pitch block for pitch shifting delays if you use the Plex Delay block.

To answer your other question, there's not a way to have the same block in multiple places unless you use multiple instances of that block, which you can't with Pitch. The Send/Return blocks can allow for some clever routing but that would be a challenge...

 

[JES]

Thank you @unix-guy. I hadn’t considered the Plex because I don’t want the pitch in the feedback loop. The effect I want is echo an octave up with medium feedback of the pitch shifted note only.

Am I wrong? I suppose I could set up an alternate path with a plex giving a single echo (no feedback), and then a plain delay after for feedback.

 

[unix-guy]

Thank you @unix-guy. I hadn’t considered the Plex because I don’t want the pitch in the feedback loop. The effect I want is echo an octave up with medium feedback of the pitch shifted note only.

Am I wrong? I suppose I could set up an alternate path with a plex giving a single echo (no feedback), and then a plain delay after for feedback.

I'm not sure...

You can check the block diagram here (from the Blocks Guide):

 

[Joe Bfstplk]

And we are two. I can't several minutes of blah blah blah to extract what is said in one line of concise text

Yeah, it's painful, sometimes listening through the excess verbiage, stuff you already know, and whatever else - SQUIRREL! - the video star feels is vitally important, just to get to the one tidbit you need....

 

[Greg Ferguson]

Is there a clever routing solution so that I can put a block in one place or another in a signal chain in the same preset? Specifically, I would sometimes want the Pitch block before overdrive and fuzz and in series. But sometimes, I'd want it in parallel and after those things if I'm using a pitch delay. Obviously, the solution is two different presets, but is there a clever way to move a block around between scenes using mixers, shunts, etc?

The Send/Return blocks can allow for some clever routing but that would be a challenge...

The problem is synchronizing the Feedback Receive blocks to avoid a burst of feedback.

The attached preset seems to do it. I used the Damping parameters in the modifier to immediately turn off the Return Level in the Feedback blocks and slow the ramp back to 100%, which helps the transition seem seamless.

Both Feedback Return blocks use CS 1, but their parameters are reversed, so #2 toggles the opposite of #1. The same is true of the M-Plex blocks.

There's a "Post amp" per-preset override (PP#1) set for switch 3 on layout 1 (Presets) that toggles CS-1. I'm using the chorus block to demonstrate that it's working because when the override is disabled the chorus is forced to mono because of the Amp block. When the override is enabled it's in stereo because it's in the chain after the cab block. The same sort of things could be done using scenes and channels.

The Mixer blocks are probably better choices than the M-Plex. It seems like they'd be since there are four vs. two for the M-Plex, but I can't get the Mixer blocks to not allow some feedback through as they ramp up/down. Perhaps using scenes and channels would avoid the problem but I'm tired of hearing chirps when I get it wrong.

So, not only does this allow us to move a block, it's a workaround for only having one Pitch block on the FM9 or FM3 since our usual trick is to have two instances of the same block in different places.

 

[JES]

Thank you @Greg Ferguson. I will study the preset—this is definitely not something I’d have figured out on my own!

Thanks also @unix-guy. I played around with it and found Plex Shift isn’t really right for me.

I decided to try a different tack, which is two full parallel paths, sort of Royal Blood style where the 2nd path starts with the pitch block. Then it gets its own drive and amp/cab blocks.

BUT this raises a new question for me: phase. It seems like some pairings of amps and cabs in parallel paths introduce phase issues, which I obviously don’t want when playing in low ranges. My question is: do parallel paths with different blocks also introduce phase issues due to latency that I need to account for? Or is it just a matter of matching up pairs of amps and cabs, one for each path?

 

[unix-guy]

BUT this raises a new question for me: phase. It seems like some pairings of amps and cabs in parallel paths introduce phase issues, which I obviously don’t want when playing in low ranges. My question is: do parallel paths with different blocks also introduce phase issues due to latency that I need to account for? Or is it just a matter of matching up pairs of amps and cabs, one for each path?

I think that if you have a Drive block in the path with an Amp block, which is parallel to another Amp block without a Drive that you may experience some phasing from latency in the Drive block.

You could stick a bypassed Drive in the other path at the expense of CPU.

 

[Greg Ferguson]

the 2nd path starts with the pitch block.

The pitch block introduces latency, which is unavoidable as it needs time to analyze the sound to reduce glitches. That is probably where the phase issue occurs.

You can avoid the parallel path, or, add something that adds an equivalent delay to the other parallel path, possibly a flanger block without modulation or feedback. The flanger and chorus are time-based effects that use very short delays.

Cliff said this ‘bout that:

"Pitch shifting necessarily adds latency. Pitch shifting is a perceptual process. It requires a reasonable amount of history to work. This adds latency. Typically 20ms and up. Some people are more tolerant to latency than others. I've compared the latency of our algorithm to other products and ours is equal or better but there is latency in any pitch shifter. All pitch shifters have tradeoffs. The lower the latency the more prone they are to tremolo artifacts, double transients and other issues. Solving those issues increases the latency and the computational burden. The only pitch shifting algorithm that has negligible latency is the "Rollers" algorithm but that requires insane amounts of CPU and the samples I've heard aren't impressive. It also has its share of issues (smearing, chirping)." [9]

The Wiki’s entry for the Pitch block has more about it.

 

[JES]

Thanks again. I really appreciate all the knowledge you both shared, and on the weekend.

Is there a place I can go (I'd even watch a video ) where I can learn about managing latency and maintaining phase on the Fractal Audio devices? Doesn't have to be the FM9 specifically. It's just a new thing to consider with parallel signal paths. Obviously, it's not like a DAW with automatic plugin delay compensation.

@Greg Ferguson -- I opened up your preset, and I think I don't understand the value of the multiplex block here. What's the difference between using that and just bypassing the outs of the return blocks and having one route to before the amp and another to after the amp?

 

[Greg Ferguson]

Thanks again. I really appreciate all the knowledge you both shared, and on the weekend.

Is there a place I can go (I'd even watch a video ) where I can learn about managing latency and maintaining phase on the Fractal Audio devices? Doesn't have to be the FM9 specifically. It's just a new thing to consider with parallel signal paths. Obviously, it's not like a DAW with automatic plugin delay compensation.

I’ve never seen one. Maybe @Burgs , @2112 or @Cooper Carter have already made one or will do a video explaining.

@Greg Ferguson -- I opened up your preset, and I think I don't understand the value of the multiplex block here. What's the difference between using that and just bypassing the outs of the return blocks and having one route to before the amp and another to after the amp?

Feedback and timing. Without the M-Plex blocks switching the signals you’ll get instantaneous and possibly constant feedback. They’re also what allows toggling the position of the Chorus block to be a pre or post effect.

I tried using Mixer blocks, and/or only bypassing the Return blocks, changing which parameters were being adjusted, and using different bypass modes, and adjusting the modifier’s damping of the rates to toggle, and the combination in the preset gave smooth transitions without any feedback.

 

[unix-guy]

Is there a place I can go (I'd even watch a video ) where I can learn about managing latency and maintaining phase on the Fractal Audio devices? Doesn't have to be the FM9 specifically. It's just a new thing to consider with parallel signal paths.

I don't think there is much about this. Maybe in the wiki?

It's not a topic that comes up much because (I think) it's mostly not something you typically have to worry too much about.

 

[bleujazz3]

Is there a place I can go (I'd even watch a video ) where I can learn about managing latency and maintaining phase on the Fractal Audio devices? Doesn't have to be the FM9 specifically. It's just a new thing to consider with parallel signal paths. Obviously, it's not like a DAW with automatic plugin delay compensation.

@JES:
I don't know if this can help answer your question regards phase, but when using dual cabs in CAB, visit Align and match up your signal response curves by modifying the mic alignment distances. Doing this will help maintain the phase you're seeking from both cabs.
That's all I've got for now regards maintaining phase.

 

[JES]

Greetings. I’ve been doing my homework, which raises more questions.

1. In the cab block there’s a room parameter. Is this basically the same as “small room” in the reverb block? What’s the advantage of one vs the other, other than saving a block?

2. The ”boost type” models in the amp block: am I right that “RCB“ is RC bass?

3. i love runaway delay feedback but want to control volume as it goes nuts. Is there a way to do that with the compander in the block? I know I could stick a limiter in the path after the delay but if there are other tricks I’d like to know.

4. Finally, a virtual expression pedal: I know I can assign footswitches to be control switches for modifiers. But what I’d like to do is trigger an envelope with the switch rather than my playing. For instance, a hold function that gives me a delay or reverb swell while I hold it until I let go. As far as I can tell, the envelopes can only be triggered with a note, not a switch. Any other ideas? I have a real expression pedal but this is for patches where I want a second thing controlled by expression.

 

[unix-guy]

1. In the cab block there’s a room parameter. Is this basically the same as “small room” in the reverb block? What’s the advantage of one vs the other, other than saving a block?

It's a very simple room simulator...

2. The ”boost type” models in the amp block: am I right that “RCB“ is RC bass?

RC Boost - the pedal from Xotic

3. i love runaway delay feedback but want to control volume as it goes nuts. Is there a way to do that with the compander in the block? I know I could stick a limiter in the path after the delay but if there are other tricks I’d like to know.

Not sure.

4. Finally, a virtual expression pedal: I know I can assign footswitches to be control switches for modifiers. But what I’d like to do is trigger an envelope with the switch rather than my playing. For instance, a hold function that gives me a delay or reverb swell while I hold it until I let go. As far as I can tell, the envelopes can only be triggered with a note, not a switch. Any other ideas? I have a real expression pedal but this is for patches where I want a second thing controlled by expression.

An Envelope follower follows an input signal.

What do you mean by "swell"? Are you wanting the level to increase or just hold?

The Reverb and Delay both have hold functions. You can use a Control Switch sweet as Momentary type assigned to that function.

 

[JES]

Here is my latest question. I posted on the bass board but it is crickets and tumbleweed over there.

The one effect I am having trouble duplicating is my VFE Woodchipper. it is a really unique fuzz that works very well in the bass range. I don’t need an exact perfect replica, but a functional equivalent. I was also happy with a Malekko Bassmaster (these are both brass master derivatives).

Anyway, here are some samples. It's a gated fuzz with some octave, you'll hear the gate working on the last note especially. Here's a recording with me playing; Beyer M160, M201, and Shure SM57 mics on a 12" bass speaker (phase aligned); the speaker's low pass starts around 4-5k, so there's a lot more high end available ( like a lot of fuzzes, it gets spitty without a cab), Orange head.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/f7wgvpl83acrn9g/Woodchipper.mp3?dl=0

And here's the YouTube demo: