Noob Question: High Gain Amps Sound the same...

zenaxe

zenaxe

Fractal Fanatic
Hey Guys as noted in another thread, I just got my AxeFx this Christmas. :)

So far it's impressive but one thing that has struck me as "funny"/weird about it is that many of the different high gain amp models feel and sound very much the same for me in a lot of circumstances... For example, if I dial in a patch with say, the Uber model and then leave everything the same and then switch to say, the power ball, it sounds feels pretty much the same maybe a little more bass or treble here or there but it's so similar it's actually kind of striking/confusing. Like to the point I couldn't really tell which is which. The timbre/harmonic content of the distortion sounds super similar from amp to amp.

I don't get this with other modelers (VSTs, PODs, etc) and I certainly wouldn't expect this and don't get this with my tube rigs, etc. Also, some amps that in real life are always noted as not being super high gain seem to have a total assload of gain on tap (Like the Plexis and the JCM800, for example).

So I'm thinking I have to have something wrong here....

Some relevant setup data:
1. For high gain patches, I usually have the PRS Custom 24 with HFS Bridge pickup, sometimes a mahogany Schecter with an SD Distortion bridge.
2. I am going straight into the front input.
3. I have the input level @ 2 O'clock
4. I have set analog front in the I/O menu
5. Global EQ is flat/Cab on/power amp on
6. Red light on input is not constantly (rarely) lit

I'm evaluating these sounds in a practice type setup when running FRFR using monitors.

It seems like it could be the input level but I've got everything as recommended in the Wiki... Any suggestions for some experiments to try?

I did notice on TGP that one user noted this "sameness" issue when he valuated an Axe but no one really addressed it in the discussion.

"My personal things that I didn't gel with was the commonality of the feel of all the amp models. And they seem to all have the same underlying base tone."
Click to expand...

It sounds kind of like the problem I'm having. The high gainers seem like they have one preamp distortion model with a different EQ filter applied the way I have things set up now.

NOTE: I am not claiming this is how the Axe works/sounds in general. I'm sure it's not, I'm trying to debug. I want to understand what I may have done to not get things setup right... this very same practice setup has been used with other modelers (digitech, POD, VST) to great affect and it's surprising the Axe, being the highest quality unit, has the least model to model variation in this rig. So, something must be boned.
 
Last edited:
I have to pin down that I LOVE my Axe, and use it exclusively (frfr, studio monitors). I very much enjoy the sounds that I'm able to program, however I pretty much feel the same way: Most of the amplifiers sound quite similar. I do not have too much experience with real amps, I wonder if it is the case with real amps too? I think it is probably because of Cliff's "amp digitalization" method: As far as I know he is using a modular approach, where he assembles the final amp model by putting together digital replicas of some basic, generic parts like resistors, tubes, capacitors... etc. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think this COULD be the reason why the various amps share the same sound-signature. However it is not a problem for me, and apparently for the majority of the users here, because we can get almost all the cool sounds out of the unit that are in our head. You just need to see beyond the amp model names, and use all the variables that are available in the Axe-Fx.
 
Last edited:
Do you get the same "issue" with non high gain amps? Maybe try to use Dutch's naked amp patches and give those a try... For better or worse I will say that at least two of the high gain amp sims sound nothing like the others: Euro Uber and the Marsha HBE.
 
yek said:
That's mainly because you're using different amps with the same cab. A cab has a enormous influence on the tone.
This is not an Axe-Fx thing. For example, listen to this mega amp shootout (link below), where a single cab was used. Every real hi-gainer sounds the same too.
You need to match an amp with the cab that should go with it.

http://www.hugeracksinc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=72941&hilit=shootout
Click to expand...
+1

If you try the opposite, you can see what a huge difference the cab makes. Try the AC30 (either Class A or Top Boost) with 2x12 Brit, 2x12 Gold and 2x12 Blue, and see the vastly different tone from the exact same amp settings. And these cabs are all designed with that amp in mind!
 
I agree but only to a point.

If you turn the drive way up on say the 5150, Euro Uber, Euro Red, Fryette D60M, Recto Orange you are going to get "relatively" the same sound, however there is a underlying character that IS definitely different. Some of the amps are very similar in character and that is because a lot of real amps are very similar in character. Once they get saturated, it gets a lot harder to distinguish between "similar" types of amps ie; Rock, Metal, etc... A LOT of that character will be lost when you put a driver in front of the amp, they start sounding like the driver instead of the amp.

What helped me a lot in distinguishing and choosing between the amps was to turn the amp drive down low (say 25% or less) and you can REALLY hear the different characters of the amps and that will make it a little easier to distinguish between them at higher drive levels. This is true even when using the same cabs.
 
Last edited:
Let's not forget that all amp manufacturers started from the same basic design. Leo took a tube 'recipe' and slightly modified it. Randall Smith hot-rodded that design. Besides and added gain stage the main difference is the change in the tone stack. Jim Marshall 'borrowed' Leo's design and tweaked it ever so slightly. Each and every amp manufacturer today is copying one of these 3 main incarnations of tube amps. Ultimately, they are all copying Leo. I'm not trying to say that in the real world all these amps sound exactly the same, but they are all VERY similar.
 
On other amp modelers when you change the type the cabinet changes with it. At high gain most of your tone is defined by the cabinet model. See the amp shootout referred to earlier in this thread. All the amps sound basically the same.
 
I'm convinced that you can get incredibly close to the sounds of the amp shootout referred to earlier in this thread with the Axe-FX.
 
yek said:
That's mainly because you're using different amps with the same cab. A cab has a enormous influence on the tone.
This is not an Axe-Fx thing. For example, listen to this mega amp shootout (link below), where a single cab was used. Every real hi-gainer sounds the same too.
You need to match an amp with the cab that should go with it.

http://www.hugeracksinc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=72941&hilit=shootout
Click to expand...

Yeah. That occurred to me too. :D
Same guitar, same cab, same player. And all of a sudden all the amps sound the same too. Puts some perspective on things, don't it?
 
Last edited:
Strange... I have never once thought that the amps sound the same, for either high gain or clean, even when using the same cab (I use the recto 1 cab heeeaps; it is probably in half of my patches). Each amp has a unique voice. I don't think it would be possible for me to nail any of my favourite tones in the axe using an amp other than the one I am already using.
 
antcarrier said:
Strange... I have never once thought that the amps sound the same, for either high gain or clean, even when using the same cab (I use the recto 1 cab heeeaps; it is probably in half of my patches). Each amp has a unique voice. I don't think it would be possible for me to nail any of my favourite tones in the axe using an amp other than the one I am already using.
Click to expand...

That's because you are tuned in to the voicing of the actual amp. Less experienced players only hear the sound of the cabinet. As you gain experience you begin to hear beyond the cabinet coloration.
 
Human factor

I agree that the CAB is meaning more than you should think.

But maybe some of the explanaition has something to do with the human factor.

No matter what amp I use(Axe or not) I have an image inside my head of how a given preset should sound, clean, OD, Metal or otherwise.

When I dial in the sound it ends up sounding almost like it/ I always sound. If not, I - unconsiously - try to compensate by playing a little different(pickin etc.)

Kind regards

AAEN
 
Check out this link posted in the Recordings forum. If you jump around through the video you can really compare the models he's testing. Thought they sound pretty similar, he even says the differences are way more dramatic to him--playing and in the room.

I used to teach at a store where the horn repair guy would always (barely half) jokingly say "guitar (gittar) players like to pretend there's more tones than just 'fuzz on' and 'fuzz off.'" Blasphemy, for sure (!) but sometimes I do think that sometimes our descriptions like "character" translate more to response and feel to the player than huge sonic differences to a listener outside the room.
Axe rare amps showdown
http://www.youtube.com/user/dupere14.../0/j_is6PlbY7E
 
Atleast with regard to the amps I have plaid and know how they sound, I would disagree.

I have owned a Mark IV, owned a Recto, familiar with the Shiva and the 5150, I think the Axe FX pretty much nails them.

I think what ever similarites you hear are actual similarities in the amps themselves.

Plus, if you are using the same guitar and same cab, there will be a lot of similarity in the tone anyway.
 
Yeah, maybe the only difference would be the accuracy of the virtual components .. composition, size .. I don't know how Cliff is dealing with it, but it has a subtle yet distinct impact on the tone.
 
zenaxe said:
3. I have the input level @ 2 O'clock
Click to expand...

Just one note here - I also use a Cu24 as my primary instrument. I have input at noon, which will just very occasionally flicker red on hard full chords. If you're playing lightly, or have your pickups set lower, that may not be the case for you. But the HFS pickup is high output, and so you might want to back off the input slightly to see whether you notice a difference.


Dave
 
Thanks a ton for all of the replies guys! My parents took the kids out yesterday and my wife was out so I finally got a chance to really fire this thing up and dig in proper. I'm an axefx noob but not a gear noob... I've got a cab/power/multiple preamp setup and have owned more amps over the fifteen years or so than I care to list, so I know how big a deal the cabs are and what to look for when comparing amps/preamps. The problem came down to two things for my setup basically "Spoons" and "xarkon" highlighted two really key mistakes I had made:

Mistake #1: I was using my eyes instead of my ears when evaluating the input level. My input level was at two O'Clock and I thought it was "tickling the red" but really it was too damn high. So, yesterday, I sat down picked a nice patch and really listened to it as I set my input level got that one sounding just about "perfect", then went back and forth between it and a couple of others and tweaked a bit more until I got it to what was really "right" for my guitars. I didn't realize how much difference a couple of "hours" on that knob make... This is why I was getting too much gain on the lower gain Marshalls I think... my level was high enough that it was almost like I had a boost out front. I currently have it at just ever slightly past noon. This was a big part of it, I think. I basically reduced the input level by one and 3/4 "hours". Dynamics started to come out much better and it seemed like the frequency spectrum of the high gainers' distortion started to differentiate much more fully from amp to amp.

Mistake #2: I haven't had nearly as much time to A/B things or play with the Axe as I'd like since I got it (huge deadlines @ work, right now). I thought I should find a few patches that sounded good and then just flip through the amps to see which amp I wanted to "learn" first. This isn't necessarily bad but I hadn't given much thought to what I was using as a base patch (in terms of how it had the original amp set). After reading Spoons input, I went back and looked at the couple of patches I had and the preamp drive was pretty cranked for these high gain amps combined with the low master for low power amp contribution. I think this was causing more of that "too much preamp drive/compression/saturation thing", as well. So, I dialed back some of the settings and also played with the knobs. Then I started creating my own patches for real and things really got good. :)

I can definitely hear a difference in the character of the distortion between amps that was missing before. I think the fact is, I was just getting way too much gain and compression in the preamp section and that was really homogenizing the tones and I was just trying to play and evaluate things "here and there" in ten to fifteen minute sessions which just isn't enough with this many models and with this much depth/control. I was also using headphones or super low volumes during some of that time, which as we all know, is less than ideal.

Some of the tones I was getting yesterday with the monitors at a decent output level easily hang with, and in many cases surpass, my dual tube preamp rack rig.

The rest of the discussion has been interesting and educational... Thanks for everyone's thoughtful input and effort to help an axe-noob out. This is a great community... and I'm psyched that I can finally see that this thing is really going to deliver on its promise (and then some).
 
Last edited:
yek said:
This is not an Axe-Fx thing. For example, listen to this mega amp shootout (link below), where a single cab was used. Every real hi-gainer sounds the same too.
You need to match an amp with the cab that should go with it.

http://www.hugeracksinc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=72941&hilit=shootout
Click to expand...

i can't help but agree. i found that video completely boring when i saw it the other day. i thought wow they all sound the same. kinda defeated the purpose of an amp "shoot out."
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom