Noise with single coils

CodePoet

CodePoet

Fractal Fanatic
When building patches, I'm running into noise/clipping quite often with some combinations of settings. It seems to occur with my single coil guitars. My input level into the Axe is right (tickling the reds or below), and I'm using stock presets with moderate MV and Drive settings. Turning Grid Modeling off doesn't seem to affect it. Speaker drive is 0. My Instr In level on the Axe is at 49.8%.

In the attached clip, I first play my Fender American Strat in the bridge position with a patch copied from 006 - Top Boost, with all other blocks except Amp and Cab removed for simplicity. You'll hear the distortion there, especially when digging into the notes (no red appears on the Axe input LEDs when playing). It's not a Townsend arm spin - just digging in to a hard level in the range you would typically play in. In the second part of the clip, I have turned off the Bright switch and the problem is much lessened. In the last part of the clip, I recorded the bypassed guitar signal for reference to show the distortion wasn't coming from there.

I was wondering if this is expected behavior from these amp models and I need to kill treble-related parameters to tame this or if there's something else at play. It doesn't seem right as the noise is so prevalent on stock patches (I could see if they were my patches I may have spun something the wrong way, but the stock patches shouldn't sound this way right?). The Drive (5) and Master (7.8 ) for the AC30 in this example seem fairly moderate. People recommend putting the AC30 master cranked or near, but that only increases the noise in this case. The attached clip is one example, but I find it occurring in many other amps and stock patches as well.

Yek describes this same issue in the following thread:
http://forum.fractalaudio.com/axe-fx-ii-bugs/44974-digital-clipping.html#post589553

The patch used for this clip is attached.

View attachment Top Boost - Strat Noise Example.syx

 
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I can't really hear what I think you're calling digital clipping thru my crappy PC speakers, but I can hear a couple of things:

Intermodulation distortion in the signal peaks - perfectly normal for this type of amp, guitar and settings

Way more high end than you'd use in a loud live situation. I suspect you're using a nearfield and/or on-axis speaker IR. I think this high end emphasis, including any harsh nastiness & edginess you don't like, would be filtered out by a competent FOH engineer in a live situation. It would also be filtered and/or masked in a recording. Just IMHO of course.
 
Hmmm, the noise/distortion sounds pretty clear to me. I'm curious to hear some other feedback on this and if others hear it and whether this is normal or not. As for "Way more high end than you'd use...", I don't know. This is a Strat, treble on the amp is at noon, with a little Hi Cut dialed in, so it doesn't seem excessive. And again, I'm asking as this is with the stock patches, so I wouldn't expect they would have way too much high end dialed into them. I'm just trying to learn but have been puzzled by the results I'm seeing.

Anyone else have an opinion on the clip?
 
AdamCook said:
It sounds like an amp to me.
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Adam - thanks for the reply and respect your input. That's what I'm wondering - should a Strat into an AC30 sound like that with those amp settings? If so, then then I'll work with it to drop the bright switch, drop the level, bright cap, etc. to tame the noise. I assume you're hearing the "clipping" and that's normal for that configuration? I'm just trying to learn as I haven't had exposure to some of these amps in person. I was thinking that the stock patches wouldn't be so prone to the noise, but I understand if it differs widely depending on other factors (single coil/humbuckers/input level, etc) or they're geared to other guitars perhaps.
 
CodePoet said:
Adam - thanks for the reply and respect your input. That's what I'm wondering - should a Strat into an AC30 sound like that with those amp settings? If so, then then I'll work with it to drop the bright switch, drop the level, bright cap, etc. to tame the noise. I assume you're hearing the "clipping" and that's normal for that configuration? I'm just trying to learn as I haven't had exposure to some of these amps in person. I was thinking that the stock patches wouldn't be so prone to the noise, but I understand if it differs widely depending on other factors (single coil/humbuckers/input level, etc) or they're geared to other guitars perhaps.
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Assuming we are talking about the same noises... I don't hear any clipping. Clipping to me is a harsh chopping off of the wave form that gives a "static" type of sound.

I do hear some distortion products / upper harmonics that might seem a bit unusual at first but based on the conversations I've had with Cliff they are actually pretty normal. They can just be more pronounced in certain combinations of settings...such as single coil pickups, bright switch etc. So I pretty much agree with GM Arts' assessment.
 
if you read the fizz tread there are many good tips,
i can hear what your talking about,and to my ears its not a "nice upper harmonics tone" it sounds bad to me, digital
but try and lower your x-former match/drive (a lot) and try the new grid moddeling on/off option ,
it was something cliff put in there after the "Fizz thread" discussion,
we dont have the same taste or ears,but im on your side,and in my studio as a producer,this is not what i want,
maybe i could live with it live,im not shure.
 
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AdamCook said:
Assuming we are talking about the same noises... I don't hear any clipping. Clipping to me is a harsh chopping off of the wave form that gives a "static" type of sound.

I do hear some distortion products / upper harmonics that might seem a bit unusual at first but based on the conversations I've had with Cliff they are actually pretty normal. They can just be more pronounced in certain combinations of settings...such as single coil pickups, bright switch etc. So I pretty much agree with GM Arts' assessment.
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Thanks - I appreciate the assessment. I really hear it as more of a "static" sound, but maybe I've just convinced my brain that's what it is and perception counts for a lot. It's not quite static, so I can understand what you're saying about it being distortion/upper harmonics. But it is unpleasant. I also agree that certain combinations bring it out as it doesn't happen with all guitars.

But I think you've answered my question - this is in the realm of "normal" based on the combinations of gear and settings involved, and there are ways to get rid of it if necessary. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't dealing with something that was off on my end before I started down that path. Thanks for the feedback and your involvement in the forum- much appreciated!
 
I just found that adjusting the Hi Freq up or Hi Res down on the Amp SPKR tab will help to tame this. Maybe certain combinations of guitar and settings are overloading specific frequencies and this helps to move the HIs to another area. Seems to be a good and fairly transparent solution though.
 
There is clearly clipping here guys. I have no opinion on how to fix it though, I'm a complete noob when it comes to fixing these issues.
 
That's the FIZZ! You found it without even trying. Sounds like tearing paper or bouncing sand. It is unavoidable in the Axe FX. The Grid modeling on/off seems to help a little but does not even come close to getting rid of it. Your clip IS the prime example of this. So from now on everyone, just listen to the first bout of chord blasts in the above sample.

I have never heard this in a real amp. You hear a hint of what is happening in a plexi but just a hint. A hint is a wee little bit. To tell the truth, I am on the fence again about keeping the Axe. Last practice the Axe was slightly outclassed by a Vox AC15. The punch and chime from the AC15 were just very, very nice. My Axe-power amp-4x12 sounded anemic when played next to that little bastard. By itself, the Axe sounded really nice but when the band started playing my tone dropped like a stone. I will not give up yet!
 
I've heard that as well, I turned the bright switch off usually to tame it.. but I've been meaning to check a real amp and see if I get the same thing.

Dave
 
sonofmickel said:
That's the FIZZ!
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Noooo! I wasn't wanting to start up another "fizz" thread - I hate those. Fizz or not, from my last post about adjusting the Speaker Resonance, it appears you can adjust it away fairly easily. I'd say it's not a good matching of the Speaker Resonance settings for the guitar & cab used.

sonofmickel said:
I have never heard this in a real amp.
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Maybe/probably not, but a real amp and cab are basically a snapshot of a configuration that's been preset by the manufacturer. With the Axe-Fx, we can set up combinations that don't exist in the real world - some of those may be great, some may sound like crap. But I'm of the opinion that the controls are there to shape your tone if you know what you're doing (and that's what I'm trying to learn more about). Because of this power, you also have more than enough rope to dial in unpleasant tone. Outside of the dials you get on the front of the amp, you can't adjust an amp - it is what it is - you're locked into its current configuration (until you open it up, swap tubes, re-bias, etc). With the Axe, you can change those internals it all around, so there are plenty of variables to lead you to nirvana or the gutter, depending on how they're set.

My concern was over getting this noise/distortion/fizz so readily from some of the stock patches - it would make for a bad demo for a Strat guy to be evaluating the Axe and run through the presets and get hit with the those tones. Fizz or fuzz, it's unpleasant. It doesn't show the Axe in a good light IMO.
 
DaveZ said:
I've heard that as well, I turned the bright switch off usually to tame it.. but I've been meaning to check a real amp and see if I get the same thing.
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Yes, the bright switch seems to go a long way to getting rid of it, though it changes the tone more than adjusting the Speaker Resonance settings as above. To me it seems like there's an overload of a certain band of high frequencies, so moving that bump elsewhere seems to be a good fix.
 
CodePoet said:
Yes, the bright switch seems to go a long way to getting rid of it, though it changes the tone more than adjusting the Speaker Resonance settings as above. To me it seems like there's an overload of a certain band of high frequencies, so moving that bump elsewhere seems to be a good fix.
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I'll try that.

Dave
 
Having been involved with many others in the ridiculous Line 6 PodXT fizz debate, I think it's important to differentiate between 3 very different types of things that people call fizz (there may be more).

(1) Digital distortion is something that needs to be avoided and removed completely before even considering the quality of modelled overdrive. Extreme digital distortion is obvious, but it can be easily overlooked if you're only occasionally just hitting the digital limit on brief signal peaks. Clean and "on the edge of breakup" tones need lots of clean headroom by setting their patch output level low. It also means you'll need to set your overdriven patches at a much lower level if you want consistent volume across your patches. For some equipment (not necessarily the AxeFX) that has a maximum output level of around 0dB, you may need to use a signal booster to compensate, obviously taking care with how your power amp handles the cleaner signal peaks.

(2) True Overdrive is the normal and natural overdrive produced by both real and modelled amps and overdrive pedals. It's common to see newbies (with little or no experience or real amps/pedals) jump in on a debate about fizz after turning up their drive for the first time and announce that their unit is also defective, because they can hear the fizz problem. True overdrive is integral to the signal - it's connected in the sense that it contains emphasised higher harmonics of the note being played as well as lower notes caused by inter-modulation between multiple notes as well as the harmonics themselves. With high treble boost settings this can be quite nasty and gritty, but it's still "normal".

(2) True Fizz IMHO is stuff that's produced in the modelling process that's not connected with what you're playing, not present in the original amp being modelled, and not filtered from the modelled signal. The most obvious and probably the most objectionable is aliasing distortion. This is a digital artefact common in cheap and/or poorly designed modellers. Another problem common in cheap modellers is high end “junk” produced by their overdrive algorithm that cannot be properly filtered with their simplistic speaker filters. A real guitar speaker typically has a very steep blocking filter in he 4 – 6KHz region, with higher frequencies at least -20dB lower.

Hope this adds some clarity.
 
CodePoet said:
Yes, the bright switch seems to go a long way to getting rid of it, though it changes the tone more than adjusting the Speaker Resonance settings as above. To me it seems like there's an overload of a certain band of high frequencies, so moving that bump elsewhere seems to be a good fix.
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My Strats were a challenge when I ot my first Axe- a Standard. Then the Ultra and now the II. I found the bright switch, as you did-a quick fix but a tone changer.
So now I go to the Speaker Hi Res and Hi Res Frq and also the Triode platers 1 and 2 and hardness. With a combo of some, not all-I have an easy time now getting rid of what you hear. Since 401 I have been ble to add back quite a bit of the "brightness" without the noise. Sounds great. As Scott mentioned in a post-the bright cap also has a lot to do with this correction process. I have my action very, very low-so I am\was causing mot of my issues, But have worked it out niely as mentioned above. Without raising the action.
I have no issues anymore :)
 
Stratman68 said:
My Strats were a challenge when I ot my first Axe- a Standard. Then the Ultra and now the II. I found the bright switch, as you did-a quick fix but a tone changer.
So now I go to the Speaker Hi Res and Hi Res Frq and also the Triode platers 1 and 2 and hardness. With a combo of some, not all-I have an easy time now getting rid of what you hear. Since 401 I have been ble to add back quite a bit of the "brightness" without the noise. Sounds great. As Scott mentioned in a post-the bright cap also has a lot to do with this correction process. I have my action very, very low-so I am\was causing mot of my issues, But have worked it out niely as mentioned above. Without raising the action.
I have no issues anymore :)
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It makes sense that a Stratman would have good tips for this - thanks Stratman68!
 
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