Noise Gate Settings Between II and III

[Fro]

I know I have really crappy power and just general noise issues in my house. With that said, I’ve had one noticeable difference between my Axe Fx II and Axe Fx III, and I noticed it from day one. I just wanted to make sure it’s normal and nothing to worry about.

I duplicated all of may patches on my Axe Fx III with all of the parameters exactly the same. Everything sounds and works as I expected it, except for the noise gate on the input block. I have to adjust the threshold in order for it to work the same as the Axe Fx II. If I have the threshold set at -75 on the Axe Fx II, I have to set it to -55 on the Axe Fx III. On most of my patches, it’s usually a difference of about 20. It works, and I’ve been gigging with it. I just didn’t know if it was an indication of something funky in my setup. Same guitar, same cables, same power source, etc.

Thanks.

 

[yek]

What I did, was selecting the correct AC Line Frequency in Global, resetting the Input block and ... that's it.

 

[FractalAudio]

There is a 20 dB offset between the II and II so that's exactly what I would expect.

 

[Fro]

There is a 20 dB offset between the II and II so that's exactly what I would expect.

Bingo! Thanks Cliff!

 

[vangrieg]

There is a 20 dB offset between the II and II so that's exactly what I would expect.

What does “offset between the II and III” mean, sorry?

If I set threshold in the III to -60 dB, what is it relative to 0 dB FS?

 

[chris]

What does “offset between the II and III” mean, sorry?

If I have the threshold set at -75 on the Axe Fx II, I have to set it to -55 on the Axe Fx III. On most of my patches, it’s usually a difference of about 20.

There is a 20 dB offset between the II and II so that's exactly what I would expect.

 

[vangrieg]

That doesn't explain anything. Suppose I never had an Axe-FX II. What does -55 on the III mean to me? Nothing. This -55 is relative to what exactly in Axe-FX III?

 

[Rex]

What does -55 on the III mean to me? Nothing. This -55 is relative to what exactly in Axe-FX III?

Good question. I don't know.

But that's okay, because that information doesn't affect how I use the noise gate, which is a use-your-ears process by necessity. I set it to minimize noise. Subtracting 55 dB from some number would only be a distraction, and would be added effort with no payoff when I'm dialing out noise. I wouldn't mind knowing , though, from a curiosity standpoint.

 

[vangrieg]

Good question. I don't know.

But that's okay, because that information doesn't affect how I use the noise gate, which is a use-your-ears process by necessity. I set it to minimize noise. Subtracting 55 dB from some number would only be a distraction, and would be added effort with no payoff when I'm dialing out noise. I wouldn't mind knowing , though, from a curiosity standpoint.

I didn’t even bother to look at the noise gate in my III as the inputs seem to be much quieter than on the II, so I didn’t pay attention until I saw this offset between II and III thing. Now I’m dying to figure it out.

Also, it may have some practical significance. I don’t do much recording using Axe-FX, but with plugins and my audio interface, I know that the input noise is -113 dB, and when I open the volume pot all the way, the noise goes up to about -105 - -107 dB, so I can set up a gate without testing and playing. Not that it’s a huge productivity boost and matters much, but still...

 

[Rex]

when I open the volume pot all the way, the noise goes up to about -105 - -107 dB...

105 dB is an astounding signal-to-noise ratio for a guitar. Like, world-record astounding.

 

[chris]

That doesn't explain anything. Suppose I never had an Axe-FX II. What does -55 on the III mean to me? Nothing. This -55 is relative to what exactly in Axe-FX III?

Relative to stopping the noise if that setting works?

Are people actually setting the Input gate with some prior knowledge of how much noise their guitar produces?

 

[vangrieg]

105 dB is an astounding signal-to-noise ratio for a guitar. Like, world-record astounding.

Yeah, I’ve heard that, but I’ve surely seen better with symmetrically wound pickups.

And that’s not just guitar, that’s guitar and interface input noise combined.

 

[vangrieg]

Relative to stopping the noise if that setting works?

Are people actually setting the Input gate with some prior knowledge of how much noise their guitar produces?

I wrote earlier. I know how much noise my guitar produces. It’s not really important in my Axe-FX, as I use it live, and obviously then it’s totally unpredictable, but at home it’s always the same.

 

[Rex]

Yeah, I’ve heard that, but I’ve surely seen better with symmetrically wound pickups.

And that’s not just guitar, that’s guitar and interface input noise combined.

Interface noise is negligible compared to guitar noise. Add the two of them together, and they still add up to the noise in your guitar.

Seriously, if you can coax 105 dB S/N out of a guitar, you should go into business, because you have literally everyone else beat by at least 40 dB.

 

[vangrieg]

Interface noise is negligible compared to guitar noise. Add the two of them together, and they still add up to the noise in your guitar.

I have no idea why people keep saying that. Just recently I had this discussion elsewhere, so I made a little test.

I'll just copy and paste the text and the link here.

I plugged my Gibson Les Paul Standard with Burstbucker Pro pickups into my Apogee interface. Note that BB Pro pickups are humbuckers, but they have coils with different numbers of turns, so their noise cancellation isn't the best. I'm also doing it right in front of my monitor, so you can even hear some EMI.

I passed the signal through a Helix Native preset. It starts with volume on the guitar all the way up, so the DI is around -107 dB; then I turn the volume on the guitar down (you can hear the noise as I turn the knob), it goes all silent but the guitar is still connected. DI volume at this stage is around -113 dB. Then I trim this "silent" section to -116 dB to show what a really good interface should sound like. Then I get it up to Presonus level (-104 dB). Then to Audient Sono level (-90 dB). Then I strum a chord, to show that this isn't some insane super high gain stuff. Beware, the chord in the end will be loud compared to the rest of the clip!

All measurements are non-A-weighted, as shown by Voxengo Span in the "RMS" field in the bottom, Default settings, and I pushed Reset for each part of the sample. The exact measurements aren't really important here, but I guess the difference between noise levels should become obvious. And note in the beginning of the clip that even though guitar definitely adds noise, it's not like the interface is inaudible, even though it is obviously quieter than the guitar. Also, the preset has no gate. I think it should be obvious that with quiet inputs you can do without a gate even on moderately high gain patches, but noisy inputs will force you to use one.

https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ahqg1WBBSqCKr80fIpLbNemfVuGgyw

Regardless of specific numbers and all that, in the beginning of the clip I roll of guitar volume from fully open to zero, and you can clearly hear that interface noise isn't negligible at all. With most interfaces it would be higher than the noise from the pickup.

And I did it sitting right in front of my monitor and a bunch of electronics at my desk. When I boost the noise level, you can hear interference.

Seriously, if you can coax 105 dB S/N out of a guitar, you should go into business, because you have literally everyone else beat by at least 40 dB.

That's just not true. I know a person who has -115 dB with a Jackson equipped with hum canceler J-200 pickups, and about -113 dB with D-Sonics. But those levels would require a much better interface, of course, he's using an old E-Mu 1616M with some -117 dB noise floor.

And I certainly don't see anything extraordinary with my results (the guitar is a stock 2012 Les Paul Standard), that's what I routinely here with most humbucker-equipped guitars unless there's some strong interference source nearby. Like we used to rehearse in a place next to a TV tower, so I would hear breaking news every once in a while.

I'm not sure what business I could go into, I didn't do anything apart from plugging my guitar into an interface.

If I had -60 dB noise from my guitar I'd go insane very quickly, that's unbearable stuff you're talking about.

 

[Rex]

I have no idea why people keep saying that. Just recently I had this discussion elsewhere, so I made a little test.

I'll just copy and paste the text and the link here.





Regardless of specific numbers and all that, in the beginning of the clip I roll of guitar volume from fully open to zero, and you can clearly hear that interface noise isn't negligible at all. With most interfaces it would be higher than the noise from the pickup.

And I did it sitting right in front of my monitor and a bunch of electronics at my desk. When I boost the noise level, you can hear interference.



That's just not true. I know a person who has -115 dB with a Jackson equipped with hum canceler J-200 pickups, and about -113 dB with D-Sonics. But those levels would require a much better interface, of course, he's using an old E-Mu 1616M with some -117 dB noise floor.

And I certainly don't see anything extraordinary with my results (the guitar is a stock 2012 Les Paul Standard), that's what I routinely here with most humbucker-equipped guitars unless there's some strong interference source nearby. Like we used to rehearse in a place next to a TV tower, so I would hear breaking news every once in a while.

I'm not sure what business I could go into, I didn't do anything apart from plugging my guitar into an interface.

If I had -60 dB noise from my guitar I'd go insane very quickly, that's unbearable stuff you're talking about.

There's not enough information here to evaluate what you're seeing. You say that your DI is around -107 dB, but you don't say what aspect of the DI you're measuring, or where the DI is in your signal chain. And there's the question: "-107 dB relative to what?" Also, I don't see where you're measuring the signal coming from the guitar; that's a necessary measure when you're trying to determine the guitar's s/n ratio.

 

[vangrieg]

There's not enough information here to evaluate what you're seeing. You say that your DI is around -107 dB, but you don't say what aspect of the DI you're measuring, or where the DI is in your signal chain. And there's the question: "-107 dB relative to what?" Also, I don't see where you're measuring the signal coming from the guitar; that's a necessary measure when you're trying to determine the guitar's s/n ratio.

I do mention that, I’m looking at RMS level as shown by Voxengo Span at default settings. That number is relative to 0 dB FS, obviously. I record a DI and put a plugin on the track where it’s recorded. The sample I linked to is another track, with Helix Native.

All of that is irrelevant though, the numbers themselves aren’t important, it’s not a who has lower dB contest. The reason I posted this is in the beginning of the clip where guitar volume pot goes from wide open to zero, so you can immediately compare noise from the pickup and noise from the interface input, and see it’s not negligible.

 

[Bakerman]

I do mention that, I’m looking at RMS level as shown by Voxengo Span at default settings. That number is relative to 0 dB FS, obviously.

This says nothing about the S/N you're getting. What level are the loudest peaks you're able to produce on the DI while playing guitar?

 

[vangrieg]

This says nothing about the S/N you're getting. What level are the loudest peaks you're able to produce on the DI while playing guitar?

That particular guitar, I didn't measure. My 7 string Carvin DC-727 with DiMarzio Crunchlab clips that interface's +14 dBu input, although while playing usually, I don't go above -2 dB FS.

But again, how is that relevant? This isn't about S/N or dynamic range of my guitar. This Les Paul won't use all of the interface's dynamic range, but if I raise input gain it will amplify both input noise and pickup noise together, they will still have similar levels, no matter what the overall number is.

 

[Fro]

What does “offset between the II and III” mean

What does -55 on the III mean to me? Nothing. This -55 is relative to what exactly in Axe-FX III?

Relative to stopping the noise if that setting works?

Are people actually setting the Input gate with some prior knowledge of how much noise their guitar produces?

Just thought I would clear something up since there were some questions about my original post.

The -55 I mentioned was relative specifically to my Axe Fx II. -55 vs -75. This was meant to be useful information to anyone specifically transferring patches over from n Axe Fx II. Nothing more, nothing less.

I was recreating patches on my III that were on my II. A lot of patches. And this was before Axe Edit III and any of the software that could convert patches. I know that I have serious power and RF issues in my basement. So when I noticed that I had to set the noise gate different on the Axe Fx III vs my Axe Fx II, I was wondering if I should start troubleshooting my studio setup, like if the Axe Fx III was sitting too close to something, or where it was plugged in, or where I was sitting with my guitar in relation to the rest of the equipment.

Cliff pointed out that in order to achieve the exact same response with the noise gate between the II and the III, the threshold would be different by exactly 20, in other words, offset by 20. This was exactly what I needed to know since it was literally the only setting between the 2 units at the time that didn’t exactly translate, and this was exactly the difference in setting that I was seeing. And by Cliffs response, that was by design. When he said offset, it was offset from the Axe Fx II. Now I knew that my studio setup was fine as-is. That's all this thread was really addressing, hence the title of the thread, Noise Gate Settings Between II and III.