No One Really Knows Why—Is This True? (Science Geeky)

Your objections are weak sauce. If you want to pretend to be scientific, at least give me the physics. Confirmation bias would be if I designed an experiment with an outcome in mind. Nowhere did I say that. Thanks for playing.

Its amusing how quickly people get enraged if you question their opinions on teh internet :)

Let's say I'm pretending to be scientific and by 'pretending' you mean trying, then yes I'm pretending. So that means your 'test' is well thought out and completely without issue?

Secondly, if I can't explain 'The Physics' to you that would also mean your test is well-designed? Is this what passes for logic down your way? Or perhaps you're just getting your knickers in a twist?

Bottom line is whether you're really interested in finding out if the 'subtle effect' you noticed was due to your body touching the body of the guitar or due to something else (the change in your playing position would likely be a good enough alternative explanation as would just ordinary variation in strumming, I don't even need to bring bias into it). I don't find your conclusion convincing because I can do the same test and reach the opposite conclusion because the test is badly designed (or I should say barely designed ;) Perhaps there really is an effect. Wouldn't it be great to actually find that out instead of pretending to do experiments in your bedroom?

I haven't said that your conclusion is wrong, just that your test is complete cr*p :)

Enjoy!
 
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I haven't read all the replies, so maybe my question has already been asked or answered but do microphone stands affect the sound of a microphone? I know it's a little off topic but the thought came to mind after reading all this stuff about how guitar pickups are affected by it's surroundings.

I know different mic stand bases cause microphones to pickup different low frequencies.

So should we be selectively choosing mic stands like we choose guitar construction and parts?
 
I'll be the dick for science, I don't mind.
Science is a giant among men. As such, it requires no supplementary dicks, my brother. :)


Just because those biases are always present doesn't make my criticism of his method invalid, does it.
Nor does it make your criticism valid. To be taken seriously, your criticism of his method requires support that you have not provided. You deride his method but have no knowledge of his method. You simply point a finger and say, "Junk science."
 
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Its amusing how quickly people get enraged if you question their opinions on teh internet :)
Disagreement (not =) rage.


...if I can't explain 'The Physics' to you that would also mean your test is well-designed? Is this what passes for logic down your way? Or perhaps you're just getting your knickers in a twist?
Gonna call "bait" on that. If your premise is science, let's stick with science.


...I can do the same test and reach the opposite conclusion...
Your first statement of observation and conclusion. That's a good start.


... because the test is badly designed
(or I should say barely designed ;) ...I haven't said that your conclusion is wrong, just that your test is complete cr*p :)
You present your conclusion without support and without knowledge of the method used.


Wouldn't it be great to actually find that out instead of pretending to do experiments in your bedroom?
You could holster your gun and help achieve that goal.
 
Then there's also the factor of your body physically placed against the instrument affecting the timbre. If you don't believe me, record yourself direct playing the guitar. Next sit down, keep the guitar 6 to eight inches away from your torso and record yourself direct again. You will notice a subtle difference between the two recordings in terms of tone.

I believe this.

Whether or not it's the fact that your body is physically touching the guitar ....or the fact that you play different when the guitar is 6 inches away from you (as massless was stating)....it's has the same outcome (that Dr. B stated). Your guitar sounds different based on how you hold it.
 
I haven't read all the replies, so maybe my question has already been asked or answered but do microphone stands affect the sound of a microphone? I know it's a little off topic but the thought came to mind after reading all this stuff about how guitar pickups are affected by it's surroundings.

I know different mic stand bases cause microphones to pickup different low frequencies.

So should we be selectively choosing mic stands like we choose guitar construction and parts?

Studios isolate mics from their stands with shock mounts, but I think that's more about keeping footsteps and that kind of thing from transferring from the floor. I don't think that a metal stand is resonant enough to change a mic's response to a voice or an instrument, but I'll bet you could intentionally construct a stand out of some resonant material and couple it in a way that would color mic response.
 
Speaking of mic stands, I wonder, if a pickup was mounted on a stand and you played various guitars in front of it (very close!) how different would they sound?

If I may hijack back my own thread, that is :)
 
Science is a giant among men. As such, it requires no supplementary dicks, my brother. :)



Nor does it make your criticism valid. To be taken seriously, your criticism of his method requires support that you have not provided. You deride his method but have no knowledge of his method. You simply point a finger an say, "Junk science."

The method was in his post. Do you think it was good science?
 
Its amusing how quickly people get enraged if you question their opinions on teh internet :)

Let's say I'm pretending to be scientific and by 'pretending' you mean trying, then yes I'm pretending. So that means your 'test' is well thought out and completely without issue?

Secondly, if I can't explain 'The Physics' to you that would also mean your test is well-designed? Is this what passes for logic down your way? Or perhaps you're just getting your knickers in a twist?

Bottom line is whether you're really interested in finding out if the 'subtle effect' you noticed was due to your body touching the body of the guitar or due to something else (the change in your playing position would likely be a good enough alternative explanation as would just ordinary variation in strumming, I don't even need to bring bias into it). I don't find your conclusion convincing because I can do the same test and reach the opposite conclusion because the test is badly designed (or I should say barely designed ;) Perhaps there really is an effect. Wouldn't it be great to actually find that out instead of pretending to do experiments in your bedroom?

I haven't said that your conclusion is wrong, just that your test is complete cr*p :)

Enjoy!
This is a lot of throwing around claims with little in actual counterclaims. You purport to be a dick for science but you are actually more of the artificial alternative, the dildo of science, if I may correct the labelling to something with more truthiness.

I related an observation. You called it crap science with no physics to back up why, just basically confirmation bias. Pot meet kettle.

If I didn't know any better, I would think I was on some other Internet forum where such antics are common place but shall not be named. Nice projection too, as far as to your interlocutors emotional states. You don't know any of us personally, so such stuff is at best invalid and at most schoolyard debate tactics.
 
Here's your answer. Not very scientific, but it gets the point across. :)

From the description...

"The guitar is the singer and the pickups are the microphones."
--Paul Reed Smith



I think Paul Reed Smith's quote is more philosophical than scientific (as you noted).

I'm certain that the huge majority of the sounds we're hearing in this video are the result of the vibration of the tremolo springs, which are within the magnetic field of the pickups and whose vibration will induce a current in the pickup coil. Each knock on the guitar body in the video causes a sound that rings out for several seconds, which is not true of the vibration of a slab of wood when struck (but is true of something like a spring in a reverb tank). Also, the loudest sound in the video is when the tremolo springs are strummed directly, as is the case with guitar strings.

This intrigued me enough that I just tested this with a PRS that was in need of a string change anyway, and the results are much different than those in the video. Interestingly, this is a Swamp Ash Special with a tremolo bridge, but the bridge is blocked in place and the springs are damped/muted with felt and foam. Using a cranked plexi preset with the guitar volume dimed, knocking on the body produces quick, dull thuds that correspond with the knocks and die off immediately. Holding the pickup firmly in place with one hand significantly reduces the volume of the sounds that are produced, indicating that the movement of the pickup itself is contributing to the produced sounds. Knocking on the pickup itself produces an even louder sound. This is the case with both the bridge and neck pickups. Although the tremolo springs are muted, strumming them directly with a plastic pen cap does cause damped vibrations that ring for 0.5 to 1 second, and this creates sounds much louder than those that are knock-induced.

In light of this, I am left with no other choice than to denounce the findings of this video and formally declare shenanigans.
 
I think Paul Reed Smith's quote is more philosophical than scientific (as you noted)...
I'm in agreement with everything you posted except this last bit:


In light of this, I am left with no other choice than to denounce the findings of this video and formally declare shenanigans.
Your tests show that the bulk of the sound in the video was created by the tremolo springs...but that some of the sound was not.
 
The method was in his post. Do you think it was good science?
A cursory overview of his method was in his post. There is insufficient information to determine whether it was good science. Since you haven't presented any science yourself, his is the best we have to go on.
 
I think Paul Reed Smith's quote is more philosophical than scientific (as you noted).

I'm certain that the huge majority of the sounds we're hearing in this video are the result of the vibration of the tremolo springs, which are within the magnetic field of the pickups and whose vibration will induce a current in the pickup coil. Each knock on the guitar body in the video causes a sound that rings out for several seconds, which is not true of the vibration of a slab of wood when struck (but is true of something like a spring in a reverb tank). Also, the loudest sound in the video is when the tremolo springs are strummed directly, as is the case with guitar strings.

This intrigued me enough that I just tested this with a PRS that was in need of a string change anyway, and the results are much different than those in the video. Interestingly, this is a Swamp Ash Special with a tremolo bridge, but the bridge is blocked in place and the springs are damped/muted with felt and foam. Using a cranked plexi preset with the guitar volume dimed, knocking on the body produces quick, dull thuds that correspond with the knocks and die off immediately. Holding the pickup firmly in place with one hand significantly reduces the volume of the sounds that are produced, indicating that the movement of the pickup itself is contributing to the produced sounds. Knocking on the pickup itself produces an even louder sound. This is the case with both the bridge and neck pickups. Although the tremolo springs are muted, strumming them directly with a plastic pen cap does cause damped vibrations that ring for 0.5 to 1 second, and this creates sounds much louder than those that are knock-induced.

In light of this, I am left with no other choice than to denounce the findings of this video and formally declare shenanigans.
I wish that the mic'd amp was isolated from the guitar. You can clearly hear that knocking on the guitar produces varied tones thru the amp, but we also hear the knocks, etc. directly through the camera mic in the room, so I think it;s a little hard to tell what is an audio response and what is pickup/amp response.

Clearly the wood has some effect on the sound in the video, whether or not it is as pronounced as the video seem to be trying to prove. I guess the point of all of this to me is that we spend lots of time, $$$, and energy chasing the proper woods and acoustic design for electric guitars, without really considering how to optimize transferring all of that acoustic information to the electromatic spectrum, where it can enhance the amplified signal something like what our ears hear in the acoustic realm.
 
BTW, I like the way every time the thread starts to die, someone starts picking some kind of fight, then POOF, new life!

I guess the next time I post something that could be of limited interest, I'll be sure to cap it off with, like, "this was never a problem when I had my POD" Lesson learned LOL!
 
I'm in agreement with everything you posted except this last bit:



Your tests show that the bulk of the sound in the video was created by the tremolo springs...but that some of the sound was not.

I'm in agreement with your last bit. :)

However, the implication of the video seems to be that the pickups are directly "picking up" the vibration of the wooden body in addition to the string vibration, and that the question in the first part of the title ("Does Wood Affect Electric Guitar Tone?") is therefore answered affirmatively because we heard for ourselves that when you knock on a stringless guitar body the pickups can "hear" it ringing for five seconds or more. They attempted to isolate the wooden body as the only variable by removing the strings, but they neglected to account for the (significant) effect of the tremolo springs, which is the source of almost everything we're hearing in that video. The "stringless" guitar essentially has another set of strings inside the body that they didn't remove. My shenanigans declaration is directed at the idea that the video is telling us anything useful about whether wood affects electric guitar tone.
 
@Alex C : you're right, but I think the video does tell us something useful about the question, though it's not the complete picture, and it's at least partially obscured by those danged springs.
 
A cursory overview of his method was in his post. There is insufficient information to determine whether it was good science. Since you haven't presented any science yourself, his is the best we have to go on.

Lol. Really?

This is a lot of throwing around claims with little in actual counterclaims. You purport to be a dick for science but you are actually more of the artificial alternative, the dildo of science, if I may correct the labelling to something with more truthiness.

I related an observation. You called it crap science with no physics to back up why, just basically confirmation bias. Pot meet kettle.

If I didn't know any better, I would think I was on some other Internet forum where such antics are common place but shall not be named. Nice projection too, as far as to your interlocutors emotional states. You don't know any of us personally, so such stuff is at best invalid and at most schoolyard debate tactics.

I agree so let's drop the petty flaming and deal with the original issue....

As I said the physics is not important. What is is making sure you're answering the right question.

So what is the question?

Is it 'does contact between the players torso and an electric guitar's wood body affect the signal from the pickups?'

Or is it 'does playing the guitar in different positions affects the signal...'

The first might be slightly interesting, the latter is trivial.

So take the first question since it's the only one worth making the effort for (and then only barely) and try to design an experiment that seeks to answer that question (whether it does or not is another matter).

Off the bat strumming the strings yourself isn't going to cut it since that overwhelmingly has the biggest affect on the sound (not an empty claim, though valid to dispute it with some control testing, probably not worth the effort tho).

Repeatability and variation control means you'll need some consistent way of energising the strings. Opportunity for first improvement: string. Not strings. That's going to simplify things. So take the other 5 off.

Could use a mechanical plucking device, or my preference, an ebow fixed in position and connected to a controller that turns it on for a preset time.

Now we'll make some assumptions about cause. Here I can only guess what you were thinking but given the context of the thread lets assume that the body material significantly affects the pickup signal by way of some sort of resonance interfering with either the way the string or pickup moves or both (the physics is not needed to design a good test, this is obvious when you realise that science progresses by the process of guesswork and trial and not by empirical validation of theory). You could assume pixies, but I don't know how to design a test for that...

So that's my assumption and that is what is being tested - feel free to object/modify etc

Following from that it's reasonable to assume that body contact is proving a dampening influence to the guitar and this is what is presumed to be measured (and not say the gravitational influence of a players beer belly). We'll try anyway.

Add/remove damping to guitar body: Lots of ways to do this, lets go myth busters on it and buy a side of pork (repeatability and control of variation). Mount the guitar on its side in a playing position and the pork such that they can be moved in and out of contact (consistently).

Hit record, actuate string, move pork. Repeat.

That test *might* stand some chance of providing good data. Note that even then, unless the measured effect was very large, you still have the issue of determining the relationship between what is measured and the subjective experience of a guitarist in the field and that's a huge can of worms imo.

So, criticise, reject, modify. As long as your objective is to improve the experiment (that was my original intention believe it or not) I'm not going to get upset.

(Sorry, I had way too much fun than I should have writing this... and apols to the op for the gunpoint hijack of the thread :) )
 
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