No more real cabs for me

If... IF... I ever felt like I prefer FRFR to real guitar speaker cabs, I'd try to make sure my excuses for justifying it don't make me sound like I'm old, weak, lazy and jaded...
I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here, or who this comment is aimed at?

I certainly don't need or have "excuses" for using FRFR. In my experience, FRFR is the best choice for MY performance needs.

As far as "jaded", I feel like it's the traditionalists that are in that camp... But that is just my opinion.

In regards to the weak and lazy comment, I can only surmise that you are insinuating that "real men use stacks of 4x12s"? If not, maybe you can elaborate?
 
Well said on both those posts @unix-guy. I have friends who still love the look of 4x12s and will bring as many as they can fit onstage, whether they use all of them or not. I love the sound of a 4x12, but damn.. these days it really isn't needed any more. The wall of 4x12s goes back to the days when PAs were inferior, and that was really even before my biggest playing days began.

And on the topic of gigging or no gigging?? If I could make any real money gigging I would. I have a fun band that I'm trying to work on with some friends a few hours north of me, but it is very part time and probably won't make us much money even when we start doing some shows. For me, my day gig provided the resources to put together a nice little studio that I can write songs and record them in. That is all I need now. In my 20s it was fine to rehearse most every night and gig when we could, but I don't have that desire any more. In those days I moved to one of the larger markets and played mostly originals in a band that did the showcase scene. I am back in my home town now, and to gig would mean a variety of covers and mostly learning a lot of garbage that I don't care to play. I like to put my take on a few covers now and then for fun, and that is generally what the band I'm working on does. We aren't looking to do the bar scene, only opening a few local concerts in the area.
 
No offense intended but that sentence makes me very sad indeed. Musicians belong on a stage, not in a bedroom.
I’ve spent my time in bars and in bar bands... and I remember a time when that made me happy. And I can definitely say some musicians don’t belong on stage... :)
Seriously though, I just record nowadays. And I spend a lot of time, money and effort keeping my studio ready to record what I want. Why... because it makes me happy. Don’t be sad for me.
 
Well said on both those posts @unix-guy. I have friends who still love the look of 4x12s and will bring as many as they can fit onstage, whether they use all of them or not. I love the sound of a 4x12, but damn.. these days it really isn't needed any more. The wall of 4x12s goes back to the days when PAs were inferior, and that was really even before my biggest playing days began..

Sorry, I beg to differ. Doesn't matter how good the PA is when your average FOH is primarily concerned with limiting volume and dynamic range to sound more like a pop record than a concert. A product vs an event, big difference.

Queen in a big wooden hockey arena 1979, with zero acoustic treatment, sounded better than 90% of the live sound I hear these days. This was before time alignment, before DSP and mutuband compression. FOH used their ears and worked the room, nasty nodes and all, and pushed it till it sounded good. That's an event, not a product.

Deep Purple, breaking every current live sound rule, showing us how it's done. No IEM, no monitors, not even a wedge for the singer! Just talented dudes listening, enjoying themselves and playing their asses off:



If things don't sound compelling onstage, I won't be compelled to play my best. I need cabinets moving air behind me and to feel the place shaking. When a band feels that onstage you get a performance, not a product. Unfortunately, transformers and speaker cabinets weigh a lot, tough shit. Bring it, and give them something to remember..:)
 
Sorry, I beg to differ. Doesn't matter how good the PA is when your average FOH is primarily concerned with limiting volume and dynamic range to sound more like a pop record than a concert. A product vs an event, big difference.

Queen in a big wooden hockey arena 1979, with zero acoustic treatment, sounded better than 90% of the live sound I hear these days. This was before time alignment, before DSP and mutuband compression. FOH used their ears and worked the room, nasty nodes and all, and pushed it till it sounded good. That's an event, not a product.

Deep Purple, breaking every current live sound rule, showing us how it's done. No IEM, no monitors, not even a wedge for the singer! Just talented dudes listening, enjoying themselves and playing their asses off:



If things don't sound compelling onstage, I won't be compelled to play my best. I need cabinets moving air behind me and to feel the place shaking. When a band feels that onstage you get a performance, not a product. Unfortunately, transformers and speaker cabinets weigh a lot, tough shit. Bring it, and give them something to remember..:)


For every great Queen show in a wooden hockey arena that sounded great, there were dozens of shows elsewhere that sounded like crap. I have no nostalgic love for shows where everyone was just as loud as they could be. Those shows may have been impactful, but they never sounded good to me.

I've been to a lot of shows since my first Kiss concert with AC/DC in 1977. Visually, it was stunning. Sonically, it was simply bombastic. Just like every other show at the Capital Center in Largo, MD. The place sounded bad. Just like so many multi-use sports arenas. Van Halen, Rush, Journey, The Who, Aerosmith, Bowie, The Firm, etc. it didn't matter - no band sounded awesome there. I had a blast at those shows regardless, but it wasn't because things sounded great. Seeing bands in clubs or real music venues was night and day better.

That's still true today. It's all about the venue. For Rush's farewell tour, we drove out of state 5 hours to see them instead of the shitty basket ball arena only an hour away. I wasn't going to have my last Rush show sound like canned ass. And it was worth it. The sound was fantastic.
 
No offense intended but that sentence makes me very sad indeed. Musicians belong on a stage, not in a bedroom.

There's lots of reasons not to gig. Drunk people, late hours, low pay... I gigged for about 10 years in the 90s. I don't miss the headaches of playing gigs one bit! Plus, I could never play the crap my friends that are still gigging have to play in order to get gigs. One of them has "All about that bass" in their setlist. Seriously? If that's want it takes to get gigs, count me out.

I have owned a few FRFR monitors (Atomic Reactor, FBT 12ma, XiTone MBritt, RCF, CLR), but in every case I thought they sounded artificial. I use my Fractal gear straight into the PA at Church, but when I jam with friends I'm using my RedPlate amp. I'd love to try another FRFR solution, but at this point I'm skeptical... The Friedman ASM12 would probably be the next one I would try, but some of the reviews have not been good. I don't know what my point is other than to say that FRFR has not worked out for me and I really want it to. For me, there's still something about plugging straight into a great amp that modeling/FRFR does not capture.
 
There's lots of reasons not to gig. Drunk people, late hours, low pay... I gigged for about 10 years in the 90s. I don't miss the headaches of playing gigs one bit! Plus, I could never play the crap my friends that are still gigging have to play in order to get gigs. One of them has "All about that bass" in their setlist. Seriously? If that's want it takes to get gigs, count me out.

I have owned a few FRFR monitors (Atomic Reactor, FBT 12ma, XiTone MBritt, RCF, CLR), but in every case I thought they sounded artificial. I use my Fractal gear straight into the PA at Church, but when I jam with friends I'm using my RedPlate amp. I'd love to try another FRFR solution, but at this point I'm skeptical... The Friedman ASM12 would probably be the next one I would try, but some of the reviews have not been good. I don't know what my point is other than to say that FRFR has not worked out for me and I really want it to. For me, there's still something about plugging straight into a great amp that modeling/FRFR does not capture.
A lot has to do with the preset set up and somewhat of an "ear" shift. In big venues you hear very little of your live on stage amp and most of the sound comes from either in ears or stage monitors (less these days). But IF set up correctly with the "right" sound source...you probably wouldn't be able to tell one difference.
A lot of times a use a QSCK12...very flat. But it has much of a cabinet feel.
Much of the sound you get from FRFR is just that...a monitor or mic'd cab feel. Once I approached my presets that way it made all the difference in the world.
I still have another set up with a power amp/AXE that i can use with an array of standard guitar cabs I own...and I can still go FOH if I wanted to. It all depends on what the set up requires.
But in the end...I still sound pretty much the same with either an on stage guitar cab or an FRFR guitar cab.
 
A lot has to do with the preset set up and somewhat of an "ear" shift. In big venues you hear very little of your live on stage amp and most of the sound comes from either in ears or stage monitors (less these days). But IF set up correctly with the "right" sound source...you probably wouldn't be able to tell one difference.
A lot of times a use a QSCK12...very flat. But it has much of a cabinet feel.
Much of the sound you get from FRFR is just that...a monitor or mic'd cab feel. Once I approached my presets that way it made all the difference in the world.
I still have another set up with a power amp/AXE that i can use with an array of standard guitar cabs I own...and I can still go FOH if I wanted to. It all depends on what the set up requires.
But in the end...I still sound pretty much the same with either an on stage guitar cab or an FRFR guitar cab.
Pretty much why I love fractal...its consistent and great sounding.
 
At least for me, the modeling changes in the Axe-FX III have improved on the cabinet feel/interaction. Much has been said about using far field IRs and other things to get that "in the room" feel. But based on the III, I think there's still some contributing factors from the amp modeling which the III brings to the table.
 
As I’ve said before, the fact some guys still need to crank a 4x12 for inspiration gives me great job security as an audiologist. A day job which happens to allow my to have the means to buy fancy toys like a III.

Make no mistake, loud is cool. When I used to go to the firing range and rent the S&W model 500, it made one heck of a bang. Far more inspiring to shoot a hand cannon like that than my boring 9mm’s. However, no way I’d want to fire it without hearing protection, would leave my ears muffled and ringing for days afterwards, if not forever.

Amps are basically the same thing. I loved the sound of my bassman cranked through a 4x12, but I’d only do that for a few minutes, or in a different room mic’d.

Can’t image actually using that rig for practice or rehearsals or even gigs but it was just so loud. Maybe I’ve gotten too old but I just want to keep my hearing these days.

Coming home from live shows with my ears ringing and reeking of cigarette smoke was the norm for me for years. Don’t miss those days at all.
 
For every great Queen show in a wooden hockey arena that sounded great, there were dozens of shows elsewhere that sounded like crap. I have no nostalgic love for shows where everyone was just as loud as they could be. Those shows may have been impactful, but they never sounded good to me.

I've been to a lot of shows since my first Kiss concert with AC/DC in 1977. Visually, it was stunning. Sonically, it was simply bombastic. Just like every other show at the Capital Center in Largo, MD. The place sounded bad. Just like so many multi-use sports arenas. Van Halen, Rush, Journey, The Who, Aerosmith, Bowie, The Firm, etc. it didn't matter - no band sounded awesome there. I had a blast at those shows regardless, but it wasn't because things sounded great. Seeing bands in clubs or real music venues was night and day better.

That's still true today. It's all about the venue. For Rush's farewell tour, we drove out of state 5 hours to see them instead of the shitty basket ball arena only an hour away. I wasn't going to have my last Rush show sound like canned ass. And it was worth it. The sound was fantastic.

Thank you for your detailed and thoughtful reply. Yes, of course there were plenty of bad sounding bands and bad rooms. I love AC/DC, especially the Bon Scott era but they were not known for sounding great, Kiss same story. But there are also lots of great sounding shows like the one I posted. Styx Pieces of Eight tour was incredibly loud and the best high gain guitar sound I have ever heard, the whole band sounded great. Same wooden hockey barn as the Queen shows. Santana at Woodstock, guitar is a little too loud, but it's his band and everything else sounds pretty damn good, and there are a lot of amps on that stage. The Who Live at Leeds, Young Man Blues never sounded better, loud as could be. None of these bands would be tolerated by the current crop of engineering school, DB limited FOH people.

I think live music should always make the most of the additional dynamic range of the the PA and human hearing to create an experience that is different and more compelling than the current carefully manicured pop mix sensibility, which seeks to project the same flatly present image to every audience member, with minimal room interaction. People can tolerate a lot of dB if there is minimal distortion and nasty peaks. I'm not in favor of volume for volumes sake, but sometimes the music calls for it, sometimes it doesn't. A lot of bands just sound terrible to begin with, even when they nor the FOH are trying to be loud. A Strat with 9's and really low action through a Jazz Chorus can do some serious damage, drummers who wear earplugs and hit their cymbals too hard, etc.

But if a band has their sound together and needs a bit of stage volume for feedback, vibe, whatever, so be it, work with them. One size never fits all and a good loud show is more memorable than one which sounds more like a recording, IMHO..:)
 
It appears as if live music has changed from an ensemble of instruments in a space with the audience - to now, a listening experience much like any stereo system, via the PA. Two very different experiences.

And that’s my perspective coming from a home where there was no TV and listening to records was it’s own entertainment. Dad was an audiophile, seeking to re-create the live music experience. Despite some of the best audio gear in the world, it was never the same as going to a small venue and listening to a live jazz quartet or symphonic orchestra.

It seems we’re trying to do the same thing with rock ‘n’ roll; put all the music into a (stereo) sound landscape just like it is on recording. It’s all come back around backwards now. ;)

For the record, there is no question that live music production today is far more even and well heard for large audiences, especially when you have to have a stadium to fill with time-aligned sound/music.

I would never deny that PAs have a critical role to play in sound me enforcement; but that’s what we used to call it. - “sound reinforcement”. Not the only single sound/music source.

I also realize vocals have to project over the entire mix, making a PA in absolute necessity. But how much the rest of the sounds should go through the PA? I don’t know for sure. I like stereo imaging in guitar. That requires a stereo field. Keyboards need their space too as does a little extra kick and snare to keep the beats.

Lastly, I think in large part the market has driven us here. For 90% of all people, their music listening experience is through a pair of stereo speakers or earbuds. It is not small venue live music. There are other drivers for a silent stage that I think we all understand.

Live sound certainly has changed, and I do think for the better in many regards. But whether it’s a better music experience is a matter of perspective and opinion.
 
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People can tolerate a lot of dB if there is minimal distortion and nasty peaks.

There’s actually a measurable amount that people can tolerate before damaging their hearing forever... I’m glad I’ve had the visceral experience of blasting full stacks of Mesa’s at shows, but always with earplugs in. Ok well more often than not.

I’ll still take a perfectly tuned mix in my IEM’s any day, as well as leaving the days of ringing ears in the past.
 
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