• We would like to remind our members that this is a privately owned, run and supported forum. You are here at the invitation and discretion of the owners. As such, rules and standards of conduct will be applied that help keep this forum functioning as the owners desire. These include, but are not limited to, removing content and even access to the forum.

    Please give yourself a refresher on the forum rules you agreed to follow when you signed up.

No Effect Loop in Axe-Fx´s Amp Models?

11&2

Member
Hi,

"it makes sense to put the effects loop after all the up-front overdrive and tone shaping within the amp, but before the output stage, where the volume gets ramped up before hitting the speaker, and that’s just where amp makers put them..."
from http://www.gibson.com/en-us/Lifestyle/F ... 20Effects/

I have just read the wiki again and can´t find a true effects loop in the amp block section.

Now I may have not enough indepth knowledge to argue wheter this would be necessary btw. makes a sonically difference?

What do you guys say?

Thanks, S
 

Smilzo

Power User
Look behind Axefx. There's a real analog fx loop, with real digital converters. Use it to taste.
 

R.D.

Power User
I'm probably going to get this wrong ..., so someone please feel free to set it straight ....

But, I believe Cliff has said he won't do that because it would make the "code" behind how he's modelling the Pre-Amps & Power-Amps much easier to reverse engineer ....

Like I said, I'm sure that there's much more to the story than just that. But I think that's at least part of the issue here ....
 

Smilzo

Power User
R.D. said:
But, I believe Cliff has said he won't do that because it would make the "code" behind how he's modelling the Pre-Amps & Power-Amps much easier to reverse engineer ...
He said that FX LOOP isn't doable, given the actual model.
He said making the preamp selectable (include "shunt preamp") could make reverse engineering easier. He didn't say "much". Perhaps "somwhat"! :lol:
 
It seems that the real magic of the models is in the power stage and as thus Cliff won't allow it to be accessed separately. It's a bit annoying, but really not that big a deal. It's also good business. You can't really blame him. Just put your effects after the amp block but before the cab. Close enough for government work. You can access the pre amps by turning the sag control all the way down. That turns off the power amp stage of the amp model.
 
That's a physical effects loop for the AFX. What he was talking about is a virtual effects loop similar to an actual amp. If you have an effects loop on your amp, it takes the signal from your pre amp loops it out to external effects via the effects send. It then loops back into the effects return on your amp where it then goes into the power amp. On the AXF, the pre amp and power amp are inseparable. You can't place effects between the pre amp and the power amp.
 

Sixstring

Axe-Master
It's actually better to run time based effects after the powersection of an amp. If your not familiar with the issues of running time based effects through a tube power section, though it works the results are usually not the best.
 

Jed

Inspired
Sixstring said:
It's actually better to run time based effects after the powersection of an amp. If your not familiar with the issues of running time based effects through a tube power section, though it works the results are usually not the best.
Agreed. Effects loops as configured in analog amps is a forced compromise. The AxeFx routing is the ideal.
 

widrace

Inspired
Sixstring said:
It's actually better to run time based effects after the powersection of an amp. If your not familiar with the issues of running time based effects through a tube power section, though it works the results are usually not the best.
Does the poweramp section of the Axe respond to time-based effects in a similar manner?
 

Phostenix

Power User
So, if you use Input/Ouptut 2 for an external FX, it goes in the chain after the power amp (but before cab sims)?
 

Sixstring

Axe-Master
widrace said:
Sixstring said:
It's actually better to run time based effects after the powersection of an amp. If your not familiar with the issues of running time based effects through a tube power section, though it works the results are usually not the best.
Does the poweramp section of the Axe respond to time-based effects in a similar manner?
I can't answer that for sure but if Cliff did all the modeling as accurately as possable I would think so.
 

Sixstring

Axe-Master
Phostenix said:
So, if you use Input/Ouptut 2 for an external FX, it goes in the chain after the power amp (but before cab sims)?
Yes, in an FR system that's the correct way to do it.
 

fremen

Fractal Fanatic
while we're on the subject… yesterday I inserted a stereo effect in the loop of the Axe. As it has only one input, I used only an effect send from the Axe, but the two returns. No matter what I do, I can't get the inserted effect to output in stereo within the Axe. I used the effect loop in the end of the grid and nothing else. Does it sounds mono because I use only one effect send ?
 

marco70_italy

New Member
Jed said:
Sixstring said:
It's actually better to run time based effects after the powersection of an amp. If your not familiar with the issues of running time based effects through a tube power section, though it works the results are usually not the best.
Agreed. Effects loops as configured in analog amps is a forced compromise. The AxeFx routing is the ideal.
+1, it is a compromise.
That's why slaving is a common technique with real tube amps. Effects after power amp or even after cabinet+microphone
 

steveb

Inspired
This is where you just need to change thinking a bit from the real world. You don't put effects after the poweramp in a real amp because no effects unit would handle the output power. In the AxeFx there is no issue with that at all, so put your time based effects after the amp block.
 

stef herbuel

Inspired
fremen said:
while we're on the subject… yesterday I inserted a stereo effect in the loop of the Axe. As it has only one input, I used only an effect send from the Axe, but the two returns. No matter what I do, I can't get the inserted effect to output in stereo within the Axe. I used the effect loop in the end of the grid and nothing else. Does it sounds mono because I use only one effect send ?
hello fremen ;-)
no the "return" section of fx block has, if i remember correctly 3 parameters :
- level
- balance
- bypass mode

only "balance" can affect what you are saying.(BTW balance would make you hear a sound only in left side or right side...not in mono...)
( check also in the "output" section if all the pan are in the middle.)
check you cable, and try to just plug one, in left , do you hear a sound (only in left ?) ? then in right ...
no plug the other cable, do the same test.
i use the input 2 for external device (guitar synth etc) , the input is not affected of what you do with the send at all.
hope this help

steveb said:
You don't put effects after the poweramp in a real amp because no effects unit would handle the output power. .
if i can put my 2 cent
in real world it's done in other way, mike landau or larry carlton, van halen etc use dry/wet or wet/dry/wet , they don't put effect in ther amp, and after the amp but put a mic in front of it, the mic goes in a preamp, out of the preamp in effect unit in all wet.and then the use another amp (FRFR or transitor amp) only for effect.
they do this because effect loop in an amp is great , but when you crank the power amp really hard, then come power tube distortion and delay/reverb become useless.
 

javajunkie

Moderator
Moderator
Sixstring said:
Phostenix said:
So, if you use Input/Ouptut 2 for an external FX, it goes in the chain after the power amp (but before cab sims)?
Yes, in an FR system that's the correct way to do it.
You can place the effects loop anywhere in the chain (just add the fx loop block). Unless you are running a stereo cab or 2 mono cabs panned hard L/R, you may want to place stereo effects after the cab. The cab is a linear time invariant effect (unless you add drive) so effects like delay and reverb will sound the same before or after it. As Cliff and others have stated on numerous occasions LTI effects can be placed before and after each other and the will sound the same. Only when the placed before or after non LTI effects (drive, amps, et. al) does it really matter. The one caveat there is that some effects are mono placing effects before and after that make a difference.
 

steveb

Inspired
stef herbuel said:
if i can put my 2 cent
in real world it's done in other way, mike landau or larry carlton, van halen etc use dry/wet or wet/dry/wet , they don't put effect in ther amp, and after the amp but put a mic in front of it, the mic goes in a preamp, out of the preamp in effect unit in all wet.and then the use another amp (FRFR or transitor amp) only for effect.
they do this because effect loop in an amp is great , but when you crank the power amp really hard, then come power tube distortion and delay/reverb become useless.
true, and of course you can use an attenuator with a line out to take the signal from the amp heads also. Luckily its easier to do all that in the AxeFx.
 
Top Bottom