NGD: Finally got myself a tube amp! Need tone help with Axe-fx

Just had a chance to load up Quantum 7 and test it out side by side with my Triple Rec into the same 4x12 Mesa Cab, unfortunately it was almost midnight and in my garage that I know I would have woken up the neighbors if I had turned it up at all. At low volume with everything at noon except for the Master on the Orange Channel Modern right above zero for the Master, the amp still had more low end depth than the Recto 1 Orange Modern. I would go back and forth and there was just something there that wasn't in my Axe-fx setup. I changed the suggested settings earlier in this thread and it got it closer but still not as organic (only word I can think of). I then checked the back of the amp and noticed that I was running the Triple Rec with the Rectifier Switch on Hi Power. I switched it to Normal and the Axe-fx got a lot closer to the amp. I tried the Recto 2 Orange Modern and that amp sim is a lot quieter than Recto 1 Orange Modern. I only tested it for 5 minutes, I will have to dig deeper sometime this week/weekend. Is there a way to simulate the Rectifier Switch on Hi Power setting? Thanks!
 
Finally had a chance to play at a much louder level so I've been messing with my Axe-fx and comparing it to my Mesa Boogie Triple Recto through my Mesa 4x12 (slat oversized I think)... After way too much advanced adjusting I finally changed the global EQ. I actually have it sounding better than the Mesa on Red channel modern! WTF?!?!!! I don't know if it's my Axe-fx or if it's my power amp that needs more low-end, I would have to say that it's the Axe-fx since I've had similar issues through about 4-5 power amps... I'm gonna take my Axe-fx to practice on Sunday to get the ultimate test.

P.S. The volume of the Rectos is not very even, and the Recto 1 Red Modern (?) only shows up as Recto Red, is that right? Looking forward to Sunday!
 

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Went in today with a fresh pair of ears and on first test my global settings made the Axe-fx sound muddy, I adjusted it and it sounded a bit cleaner. Turned on the Triple Rec and it sounded much cleaner on the low end and a bit more pronounced. Dammit...

Had to stop because I'm getting fiber run to my house! Excited.

Still going to test it at practice tomorrow to get a better feel for things in a band environment.
 
Went in today with a fresh pair of ears and on first test my global settings made the Axe-fx sound muddy, I adjusted it and it sounded a bit cleaner. Turned on the Triple Rec and it sounded much cleaner on the low end and a bit more pronounced. Dammit...

Had to stop because I'm getting fiber run to my house! Excited.

Still going to test it at practice tomorrow to get a better feel for things in a band environment.
It's annoying when the real amp sounds better than AxeFx. But Trust me the axe can be tweaked to sound better
 
No kidding it's annoying as... Well you know. Just now I tested my Axe with the Recto in 4CM and it was a bit strange because it sounded out of phase and then I changed the channel in the back and then it sounded ok. I then muted the FX Loop and added an amp block and they had a similar character to them which I'm guessing has more to do with the Recto power amp. Disconnected everything and went straight to my Mesa 2x12 into the Recto this time and sounded good. I disconnected the Recto and plugged in the Axe and I used Recto 2 Red and it sounded very low, so I used the utility and turned up the gain until I got to unity and the Axe sounded just as good as the Recto... Again, WTF!!! I then tried it back on the Mesa 4x12 and with the amp sim close to unity and it sounded similar to the real deal without any global eq'ing. Again... WTF?!?!??

I have no idea what's going on now... My ears are playing tricks on me... Tomorrow can't come fast enough so I can jam these in a band environment.
 
Just now I tested my Axe with the Recto in 4CM and it was a bit strange because it sounded out of phase

Your Triple Recto likely has a parallel FX loop. That's a special kind of beast to tame, especially with Mesa. The best solution is to mod it to a series loop.

Turning the amp FX loop mix all the way up on a Mesa isn't 100% wet; there's always some dry coming through. Even if they mark it as 100%, there's always dry bleed. What this means is that you can't send ANY dry tone after your FX Loop block from the Axe. All post loop effects need to be set to 100% mix and run in parallel in the grid. Use Input Gain for level control of each effect. Set the amp's mix knob wherever sounds best, or use Mesa's instructions for setting loop unity gain.

If you don't do this, you'll hear dry from the amp and dry from the Axe, blended but out of phase because one signal is going through a digital processor and one isn't.
 
No kidding it's annoying as... Well you know. Just now I tested my Axe with the Recto in 4CM and it was a bit strange because it sounded out of phase and then I changed the channel in the back and then it sounded ok. I then muted the FX Loop and added an amp block and they had a similar character to them which I'm guessing has more to do with the Recto power amp. Disconnected everything and went straight to my Mesa 2x12 into the Recto this time and sounded good. I disconnected the Recto and plugged in the Axe and I used Recto 2 Red and it sounded very low, so I used the utility and turned up the gain until I got to unity and the Axe sounded just as good as the Recto... Again, WTF!!! I then tried it back on the Mesa 4x12 and with the amp sim close to unity and it sounded similar to the real deal without any global eq'ing. Again... WTF?!?!??

I have no idea what's going on now... My ears are playing tricks on me... Tomorrow can't come fast enough so I can jam these in a band environment.
Something i can tell you from experience, I never had any luck running my AxeFx through my fender HRD tube amp. No matter how much I tweaked. You gotta try your axe through some powered monitors or an FRFR cab as this was the only way it would sound good in my experience. It's also recommended to use a solid state power amp if using an external amp for obvious reasons.
 
This is a dangerous rabbit hole, lol!

I have had an old 2-channel Triple Recto for years, and I have had my Axe-FX II for years also. I used an ART SLA-2 for a while, and have used a Matrix GT1000FX for awhile also. I have done this comparison a thousand times as well, and I have always thought the same..... there is a certain 3D low end punch the amp has that I just cannot dial up on the Axe-FX. I have never really tried to dial it up to be exact, but more to approximate a OD808->Recto->EQ pedal in loop setup I typically use.

I agree with the other advice in this thread about the low end resonance, and dynamic depth and such. I also find that I must really scoop the Axe/Matrix rig a lot to have it sound more like my tube amps. I dont know why this is, but either adding filters after the amp to add +10db of gain on a low pass at about 200hz helps a lot. Either that or do a wide narrow scoop from about 400hz to 1000 hz helps the bass stand out more.

I haven't got to dial in Q7 yet, but I did quickly throw up a Recto 2 Red Modern (I used to always use Recto 1 Red), and it sounded pretty good without much fiddling. Funny enough, if I use a cab block into monitors/headphones, I dont seem to have this problem. The IRs seem to take care of this. I typically use a Gflex 212 cab also, so it is not some cheap no-name cab.

I would suggest dialing up the amp sim how you want, add a filter block after the amp set to low pass. Put the gain at about +5db to +10db at about 200hz. Dial in the gain to add in how much low end chug you want.
 
Thank you so much for the input fellas...

Finally had a chance to A/B it at practice with my Marshall 4x12 with V30's. They did sound very similar but there was that 3D low end that was missing a bit. I cranked it and it was still pretty close, the only issue was that the Axe-fx amp sim sounded very compressed on some of the Recto Amp sims, along with having to kick up the level within the amp sim to get it to unity gain under the utility.

After practice I realized that I was running the Triple Rec in half power, I switched it to Full Power and the low end thickness and clarity was head and shoulders above any of the Axe-fx Recto amp sims. Every note was clear. Is the Triple that much clearer than the Dual Rec?
 
Thank you so much for the input fellas...

Finally had a chance to A/B it at practice with my Marshall 4x12 with V30's. They did sound very similar but there was that 3D low end that was missing a bit. I cranked it and it was still pretty close, the only issue was that the Axe-fx amp sim sounded very compressed on some of the Recto Amp sims, along with having to kick up the level within the amp sim to get it to unity gain under the utility.

After practice I realized that I was running the Triple Rec in half power, I switched it to Full Power and the low end thickness and clarity was head and shoulders above any of the Axe-fx Recto amp sims. Every note was clear. Is the Triple that much clearer than the Dual Rec?
Keep tweaking you'll get there with the axe! Have you tried a tonematch or IR of your cab?
 
I tried to use the second to last preset 383 I think... to do a tonematch when I had it in 4CM but I don't know what the heck I was doing. It blew my ears out a couple times in the process of trying to do that. It would be nice to get a tonematch of just the amp against the amp sim to see the differences and actually have that tone in the Axe-fx with the Triple Rec in Full Power... oh man what a beast. Is there a video that shows you step by step on amp matching? Thanks!

P.S. Just found this but man, I work better watching someone else do it first.
 
Cool thanks for the link! I've got lucky tonematching isolated loops in my DAW but never shot an IR of a cab. Gonna try that next!
 
I wouldn't have thought that there would have been that much of a difference between the Dual Rectifier and the Triple Rectifier but apparently there is. While in search of "Axe-fx like" effects at a super low budget I came across the Digitech RP360XP (not saying it's anywhere close, just saying I was researching) and it apparently has an amp sim for both the dual and the triple recs. Here's a video where the amp sims sound like crap but you can immediately tell that the Triple has way more going on in the low end when compared to the Dual.

Even though my other guitarist has a Dual Rectifier, (he added KT88 tubes before I met him and he says that it adds all kinds of low end awesomeness because they are bigger tubes) I can't compare it against the Axe-fx sims because all the Recto amp sims (according to the wiki) are from the Dual Rectifier and none are from the Triple Rectifier. I was doing some research on a 2nd rig setup for the Triple Rec (don't want to have to lug around my 4U with the Axe-fx and a pedal board) and I ended up buying an older TC Electronic Nova System that should be here sometime this week. All I really use is the Tuner, Delay, Wah and Whammy... sometimes I use a Flanger/Phaser... so I'm going to have to get an expression pedal and wah. Maybe I'll just ditch the wah all together, I only use it on one intro.

Just got a hold of a momentary latching pedal on a deal that I got on CL (It's the same thing as a sustain pedal for a midi keyboard right?), so I'm hoping to Amp Match the Red Channel to the Axe-fx. What amp sim should I be using? According to the wiki:
  1. "If you want that Recto crunch but not so flubby and fizzy try the SOLO models. They're much brighter so I turn the treble down quite a bit." source
It's funny because in the short amount of time that I've used the Triple Rectifier, it's anything but flubby. The low end is just menacing, thick and clear. We actually just had a show this past Sunday and I had the best tone I've ever had on stage. Now I want to get that in my Axe-fx so I don't have to worry about tubes.
 
I'm just going by what he told me... hahahaha.

I've switched the virtual tubes in the Axe-fx and really don't notice any real difference either.
 
I wouldn't have thought that there would have been that much of a difference between the Dual Rectifier and the Triple Rectifier but apparently there is. While in search of "Axe-fx like" effects at a super low budget I came across the Digitech RP360XP (not saying it's anywhere close, just saying I was researching) and it apparently has an amp sim for both the dual and the triple recs. Here's a video where the amp sims sound like crap but you can immediately tell that the Triple has way more going on in the low end when compared to the Dual.

Even though my other guitarist has a Dual Rectifier, (he added KT88 tubes before I met him and he says that it adds all kinds of low end awesomeness because they are bigger tubes) I can't compare it against the Axe-fx sims because all the Recto amp sims (according to the wiki) are from the Dual Rectifier and none are from the Triple Rectifier. I was doing some research on a 2nd rig setup for the Triple Rec (don't want to have to lug around my 4U with the Axe-fx and a pedal board) and I ended up buying an older TC Electronic Nova System that should be here sometime this week. All I really use is the Tuner, Delay, Wah and Whammy... sometimes I use a Flanger/Phaser... so I'm going to have to get an expression pedal and wah. Maybe I'll just ditch the wah all together, I only use it on one intro.

Just got a hold of a momentary latching pedal on a deal that I got on CL (It's the same thing as a sustain pedal for a midi keyboard right?), so I'm hoping to Amp Match the Red Channel to the Axe-fx. What amp sim should I be using? According to the wiki:
  1. "If you want that Recto crunch but not so flubby and fizzy try the SOLO models. They're much brighter so I turn the treble down quite a bit." source
It's funny because in the short amount of time that I've used the Triple Rectifier, it's anything but flubby. The low end is just menacing, thick and clear. We actually just had a show this past Sunday and I had the best tone I've ever had on stage. Now I want to get that in my Axe-fx so I don't have to worry about tubes.

Yes, there is a big difference between the Dual and Triple Recto. As I said above, I have a 2-channel Triple, and have tried to dial that sound in for years on the Axe-FX II. I have never really nailed it. If you add an EQ after the amp block and do +5db about 200hz shelving, you can get the low end. I also find a small notch filter of about -5db at about 400hz to 500hz helps bring a little clarity to the low end. The Triple, in general, seems to have more low end than a Dual, but more importantly, the low end has more clarity than a Dual. I think it might have a little more scoop in the mids that helps have more clarity in general. Usually I am not a huge fan of Dual Rectos, but the Triple Recto is one of my favorite amps ever. Funny since they are suppose to be about the same.

Yes, the Digitech units have models for both. They sound kind of like what I said.... the Triple model seems to have more low end, and a more scooped midrange overall.

I have never been able to dial in that same low end punch on my Axe-FX II / GT1000FX rig. The low end never thumps the same. I have tried the Axe-FX II into the Triple's power section, and that does help.... but then I hit a point where I thought it seemed useless to run a modeler into half the amp... to emulate the same amp, lol. Maybe Cliff will add a Triple Recto sometime, along with other higher powered amps like a Mark III Coliseum, and VHT Ultra Leads. Something about those huge power sections really bring the thump.

Maybe Cliff needs to invent a modeling power amp :) Maybe the flat poweramp idea is what holds it back. A more interactive poweramp might help with thumping dynamics.
 
I have never been able to dial in that same low end punch on my Axe-FX II / GT1000FX rig. The low end never thumps the same. I have tried the Axe-FX II into the Triple's power section, and that does help.... but then I hit a point where I thought it seemed useless to run a modeler into half the amp... to emulate the same amp, lol. Maybe Cliff will add a Triple Recto sometime, along with other higher powered amps like a Mark III Coliseum, and VHT Ultra Leads. Something about those huge power sections really bring the thump.

Maybe Cliff needs to invent a modeling power amp :) Maybe the flat poweramp idea is what holds it back. A more interactive poweramp might help with thumping dynamics.

I couldn't agree more. I think the direct tone is great and has been pretty great mainly due to IR's being so good and the modeling improvements. Something is off though whenever you want to run it through a traditional guitar cab. I've had so many different power amps. Currently I was enjoying the Fryette Power Station but started to really notice the pronounced harsher high's I was getting. Cutting down those frequencies helps but at the same time hurts the sound. It's got me headed back to tube amp land in 4 cable method.
 
I couldn't agree more. I think the direct tone is great and has been pretty great mainly due to IR's being so good and the modeling improvements. Something is off though whenever you want to run it through a traditional guitar cab. I've had so many different power amps. Currently I was enjoying the Fryette Power Station but started to really notice the pronounced harsher high's I was getting. Cutting down those frequencies helps but at the same time hurts the sound. It's got me headed back to tube amp land in 4 cable method.

Funny cause I have considered getting a Power Station. :) I notice the same when I use my Triple's power section. It adds a nice low end thump, but also adds a high end harshness. Solve a problem... create a problem, haha.

I also agree that I feel the Axe is being optimized for direct use. The direct sound is getting better and better, but using a poweramp/cab still requires massive EQing. I have spent hours messing with the low frequency resonance.

What is strange is I recently picked up a Boss Katana head. Baffles the mind because that $300 amp has more low end dynamics than the Axe/Matrix rig. Of course, the modeling is no where close, and is FAR more limited, but something just works in the dynamics section. I am wondering if it is because it is an all-in-one-box solution. Maybe the modeling is working in the poweramp section as well.
 
I'm glad to hear that I'm not just hearing things in saying that the Triple Rec does not sound like the Dual Rec... Much more low end clarity and thickness. Having everything set almost to noon on every dial except master (I think I have it set a little past noon on the gain) on the Red channel Modern.

Funny thing about that Katana, I just heard about it during my research of the Nova, I thought about buying the head which supposedly has effects built-in but then I was back to the dilemma of having to carry multiple items (Triple Rec, Channel Switcher, Katana and FCB1010) to a show.

On another note, do you guys know if it's possible to use the Nova System as a midi controller for the Axe-fx II?
 
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