NGD: Finally got myself a tube amp! Need tone help with Axe-fx

mortega76 said:
Thanks for the replies fellas...

THIS is why your tone sounds great... I'm trying to cut out the TUBE part. What kind of success are you having with a Solid State Power Amp?
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That is a loaded question and a matter of preference. I never played through a solid state amp. So my ears heard a different tone. Call it coloring, warmth vs. sterile, I don't know. But you name the top end suggested SS amps and I tried one and never liked any of them better than my 2:90. I did find switching from a Mesa Boogie 2:90 to a Mesa Boogie 2:50 made a big difference, for the better, in tone. I really only switched because I didn't need the half, deep and modern features of the 2:90. But once switched over I noticed the 2:90 colored the tone because it is voiced differently than the 2:50. I also noticed that I was able to turn it up more because of less wattage. I had to run the 2:90 on 2 and can run the 2:50 almost halfway. This adds some more tube saturation to the mix. And, contrary to what has been posted over and over again, I have amp and cab modeling turned on and adjust my EQ to taste.
 
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I'm using a solid state amp and various cabs depending on the gig. I've got the Matrix GT1000FX. I've also got a handful of tube amps from old Fenders, a Supro, Mesa Mark 5 25, a boutique Plexi Clone. It is fairly trivial for me to dial a tone to sound like my favorite setting on my personal amps. That is when I have them both setup to A/B. I don't do anything other setting the classic knobs that would be available to the amp + messing with the Low Freq resonance. I'll admit the low freq resonance is very hard for me to dial in even with some of the step by step guides I have seen. I might also add a low pass EQ at the end of the chain depending on what I'm feeling.
 
philipacamaniac said:
http://www.fractalaudio.com/accurate.php
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I stand by my original post, except I shouldn't have used the word sound. They do sound the same, particularly in a recording. It's the feel and in room experience that I find lacking compared to a amp/cab.

I tried these presets and the only one I like was the JCM 800 (#2 I think). But even then, I needed to tweak it a bit to get it closer to the amp in the room sound. I prefer the one's I made over these actually. But what do I know. Lol
 
mhenson42 said:
I stand by my original post, except I shouldn't have used the word sound. They do sound the same, particularly in a recording. It's the feel and in room experience that I find lacking compared to a amp/cab.

I tried these presets and the only one I like was the JCM 800 (#2 I think). But even then, I needed to tweak it a bit to get it closer to the amp in the room sound. I prefer the one's I made over these actually. But what do I know. Lol
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I was referencing the video, not the presets. I haven't even tried the presets nor am I interested in them since I have fantastic sounding presets of my own.

I was simply pointing out that a Grammy-award winning guitarist couldn't hear or feel the difference between an amp+cab and the Axe model & IR of the same cab when monitoring from an isolated control room. I agree though - what do I know indeed? I'll take Larry's word for it and enjoy my delicious sounding box of amps.
 
philipacamaniac said:
I was referencing the video, not the presets. I haven't even tried the presets nor am I interested in them since I have fantastic sounding presets of my own.

I was simply pointing out that a Grammy-award winning guitarist couldn't hear or feel the difference between an amp+cab and the Axe model & IR of the same cab when monitoring from an isolated control room. I agree though - what do I know indeed? I'll take Larry's word for it and enjoy my delicious sounding box of amps.
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I didn't watch the video, but I assume the presets are the ones being used.
 
mhenson42 said:
I didn't watch the video, but I assume the presets are the ones being used.
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They made the presets while making the video - they shot IR captures of cabinets in the studio, took the actual amps Cliff used to create Axe models, matched the physical knobs and the Amp block, and gave the guitar to Larry.
 
The presets don't feel like an in the room tube amp and cab to me. I'm using CLRs so you'd think they'd translate identical to the video. Larry Mitchell? Never heard of her. Lol
 
As Phil pointed out, Mr. Larry couldn't hear nor feel any difference. By feel, I mean the "tube feeling" btw. The only difference between real amp and model comes with the "Amp in the room" feeling, but to me at least, there are work arounds for that. I just plug my AXE into a Matrix GT1000FX and then to some big ass flat speakers.
I haven't missed tube amps ever since, not even in the room.

I don't know what you might be doing wrong, but the amps are really accurate, and I bet the recto models match Cliff's amps almost perfectly.
 
Raab90 said:
As Phil pointed out, Mr. Larry couldn't hear nor feel any difference. By feel, I mean the "tube feeling" btw. The only difference between real amp and model comes with the "Amp in the room" feeling, but to me at least, there are work arounds for that. I just plug my AXE into a Matrix GT1000FX and then to some big ass flat speakers.
I haven't missed tube amps ever since, not even in the room.

I don't know what you might be doing wrong, but the amps are really accurate, and I bet the recto models match Cliff's amps almost perfectly.
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I have a Matrix GT1000 too. I think I can get better tones with the CLRs using cab IRS than I do with the Matrix into my cabs. The Celestion IRs are what did it for me. They make it sound a lot better than the stock IRs.

How could I be doing anything wrong if I load the preset and play thru a CLR? Should be identical to what they are hearing if the CLR is as flat as advertised.

I'm not saying it doesn't sound good or isn't satisfying. It's just not the same as a tube amp & 412 in the room as far as I'm concerned. I'm a/bing on the fly with my Lehle Dual. I'm using theCLRs in FF elevated off the floor. I bet things would be better/more comparable if I put them on the floor in BL mode. I'll give it a shot.
 
A CLR is an FRFR solution and won't sound/feel like a guitar cab in the room no matter how you tweak. The difference is listening to a guitar cab versus listening to a monitor that's being sent a mic'd guitar cab in an isolated room.
 
mhenson42 said:
You said the video was amp &cab vs. Axe & IR monitored. How is that any different than what I'm doing?
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To clarify, let me add a comma and one extra word to my statement - "couldn't hear or feel the difference between an amp+cab and the Axe model & IR of the same cab, when monitoring both from an isolated control room"

They were listening to everything via monitors. Whether the real amp+cab, or the model+IR. The real amp head was in the room with him but the physical cab it was connected to was mic'd up in an iso booth. I apologize if my original statement was misunderstood.
 
philipacamaniac said:
To clarify, let me add a comma and one extra word to my statement - "couldn't hear or feel the difference between an amp+cab and the Axe model & IR of the same cab, when monitoring both from an isolated control room"

They were listening to everything via monitors. Whether the real amp+cab, or the model+IR. The real amp head was in the room with him but the physical cab it was connected to was mic'd up in an iso booth. I apologize if my original statement was misunderstood.
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I agree with that. If you recorded both, they'd be identical
 
Rex said:
...if the modeling and IR capture are spot on. Which they were.
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That was implied. I do believe the Axe can sound like and as good as a mic'd amp/cab. I think Mo's issues arise from the "in-the-room" sound, not being satisfying compared to a real amp/cab. I've known Mo for a few years and I don't think this is a new issue. Lol
 
philipacamaniac said:
A CLR is an FRFR solution and won't sound/feel like a guitar cab in the room no matter how you tweak. The difference is listening to a guitar cab versus listening to a monitor that's being sent a mic'd guitar cab in an isolated room.
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I have to disagree here a bit.
My speakers are not monitors, they are just really big flat speakers.
I just roll off the highs and some lows in the cab block and I get the same feeling as a 4x12.

A real cab is an EQ curve, air movement, and an impedance curve.

In my case, the big speakers accounts for theair movement, and the AXE's amp block provides the impedance curve. Then the only thing left would be the EQ, which is provided by the cab block.

I tend to think of my speakers as a Cac without coloration. The coloration is set by the cab block in the AXE.

And this is why I don't like common monitors or CLRs.
 
Raab90 said:
I have to disagree here a bit.
My speakers are not monitors, they are just really big flat speakers.
I just roll off the highs and some lows in the cab block and I get the same feeling as a 4x12.

I tend to think of my speakers as a Cac without coloration. The coloration is set by the cab block in the AXE.
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There are other differences besides EQ and impedance.

A studio monitor is designed to produce sound from a single apparent location. Guitar cabs also radiate sound from the baffle, the sides and the back. This creates multiple wavefronts that interact with each other and that vary with your listening position. Even the distance between your ears can mean that your left ear hears something different from what your right ear hears, resulting in a kind of 3-D perception on the sound. This is further complicated by the fact that a single cab can have multiple speakers, each radiating a different wavefront.

Also, monitor speakers are designed to be pistonic—to move strictly in and out—for the sake of accuracy. The cones of guitar speakers can "break up," with ripples and standing waves in the cone itself, giving an even more complex and textured sound.

That said, I find FRFR very satisfying to play against, and I rarely use traditional cabs.
 
mhenson42 said:
That was implied. I do believe the Axe can sound like and as good as a mic'd amp/cab. I think Mo's issues arise from the "in-the-room" sound, not being satisfying compared to a real amp/cab. I've known Mo for a few years and I don't think this is a new issue. Lol
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Hahahaha... no kidding! Like I've said in the past, I wonder if low gain amps don't have an issue but higher gain amps might?
 
Tommy Tempest said:
That is a loaded question and a matter of preference. I never played through a solid state amp. So my ears heard a different tone. Call it coloring, warmth vs. sterile, I don't know. But you name the top end suggested SS amps and I tried one and never liked any of them better than my 2:90. I did find switching from a Mesa Boogie 2:90 to a Mesa Boogie 2:50 made a big difference, for the better, in tone. I really only switched because I didn't need the half, deep and modern features of the 2:90. But once switched over I noticed the 2:90 colored the tone because it is voiced differently than the 2:50. I also noticed that I was able to turn it up more because of less wattage. I had to run the 2:90 on 2 and can run the 2:50 almost halfway. This adds some more tube saturation to the mix. And, contrary to what has been posted over and over again, I have amp and cab modeling turned on and adjust my EQ to taste.
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How can this be a loaded question? My current rig is an Axe-fx II into a Solid State Power Amp (which would require me to enable power amp simulation and disable cab simulation to have a 'proper' setup) into several cabs and I'm trying to keep the Solid State portion of it to avoid tubes at all costs since it will cost me to replace tubes and whatever issues arise from that. From your post it looks like you have an Axe-fx into a Tube power amp (which obviously has it's own 'tube power amp' flavor going on which the Axe simulates when you enable the power amp simulation. Then you have it power amp sims enabled which would/should be the same as if you were applying the sound of another tube power amp then you are going into a cab. As I mentioned before, I'm trying to use the Axe-fx as one of it's intended setups: Amp/SSPA/Cab and for years have been unsuccessful.
 
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