Newbie irritated by RCF Art 712-A MK IV

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Guitbasstarrist

New Member
Hi
Long story short:
I bought a RCF Art 712-A MK IV active monitor to amplify my Axe FX II+. I'm irritated because this setup sounds so "hifi". Lots, lots, massive lots of boomy bass low end and crisp sparkling hights. To make it sound remotly like a guitar I must compensate it with quite extreme eq adjustments. Is that a typical experience a newbie to modeling amp technique must go through?

Short story long:
Background:
I've rather been a bassist than a guitarist for the last decades. Ok. Let's be honest. I'm not a guitarist at all. I only happen to own one and despite knowing better, my band mates currently insist on me using it at them. I don't own a guitar amplifier/cab yet and have used the "oddments" of our other guitarrist during the last year. These "oddments" consist of a 4x12" Marshall cabinet and various amps by Orange, Engel, Marshall - quality gear not to be sneezed at. I never really dug into the quest for the perfect sound because any other practice session that other guitarist might have fallen victiom to his urge to swap gear. I always delayed buying my own amp/cab because I had no clue what to buy and no interest to find out. Hey, I used to be bassist! I don't suffer from G.A.S. (gear aquisition syndrom). But now that I've raised a comfortable budget to buy about anything that might be reasonable, I'm running out of excuses for any further delay.
Also I happen to be the guy who takes care of our home recordings, multitracking and mixing. Thus I'm neither new to guitar sound in the room nor on recording. And that is what biased me to go the route of amp modeling instead of a classic tube amp / 4x12" cab.
First I tried the Axe FX with our mini budget PA (QSC GX5 amp & 2x 450W HK Speakers). That sounded like crap. I blame the cheap PA. Then I tried it in combination with a Engel amp / 4x12" Marshall cab. That sounds quite good, but when I walk "the path of amp modeling" I don't apprehend why I should burden me with a colourizing amp/cab. Thus I bought that RCF 712-A thingie. Yet I only have played it on my own, without the band. And it does sound waaaaaay better than our PA. But that is psychoacustics, because there's that cosy low end that will be drowned out by the bass and that sparkling treble that will be swallowed by cymbals and overall noise. No way that sound will cut through. But to make it cut through I'd have to apply massive eq. Is that the way it should be or is it a "feature" specific to these monitors?
 
Perhaps for good reasons, RCF doesn't publish loudspeaker sensitivity or frequency-response data on their public web site for the Art 712-A MK IV loudspeaker system. Usually this is an indicator that the loudspeaker system is not presented as being "reference quality." Put simply, this particular model may not be "flat response."
 
Guitbasstarrist said:
Lots, lots, massive lots of boomy bass low end and crisp sparkling hights. Is that a typical experience a newbie to modeling amp technique must go through?
Click to expand...
No. But it is a typical experience of someone who dialed in his tone at low volume and then cranked it up at the gig. Too much top and bottom, not enough mids.

Start over, this time dialing in the Amp model at gig levels.
 
i have the NX10's, like dukemcrae above and have no need to use the global eq at all, but it's a good quick fix. i would try playing some music through the speaker and seeing just how flat it is. if the music sounds boomy, with loads of crisp top end, then there's your answer. if you play the music through an empty patch on your axe, then you can tweak the global eq in real time.
 
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Thank you for the replies.
I've noticed that these NX10 seem to be quite common. But I can't believe that they are loud enough for my band.
We do hard rock and occasionally become quite aggressive at times. Our drummer seems to hate his drums, regarding how he beats them heavily with really thick sticks. He amplifies his kick drum and during practice sessions we reach 110dbA easily.
How could a tiny 10" speaker be big enough to move around much air and compete with a 4x12"? Thus I thought it would be a good idea to buy "one larger" than the NX10. When I turn up the RCF 712 as loud as the tube amp / 4x12" setup there really isn't much headroom left, maybe 20%.
Unfortunately those Atomic CLRs are difficult to obtain in Germany. Otherwise I might have tried them. I've read enthusiastic reviews about Friedmann monitors. But then again they are said not to be really FRFR - in a pleasent manner. That's not the idea as I'd like to get rid the hassle of micing the box for recording sessions. If I were not to go entirely FRFR then I'd rather go on using a real amp/cab/mic.
Hrmpf. I hoped buying gear would be easier going "the amp modeling way". I hoped I couldn't go wrong to buy just any FRFR monitor with enough power and the rest is up to fiddling with parameters of the Axe FX.

As for setting up sounds at practice volume level: I gave up trying to dial in the sound with headphones or near field monitors. Somehow living-room-levels are a different beast to be dealed with differently than practice session levels. That's something I must gather more experience in: How to listen and evaluate guitar sounds at moderate levels pre recording.
 
Last edited:
btw, i use two NX10's. they also come in a 12" flavour, which are a bit louder.

just use the global eq to shape the tone of the speaker. try using the synth block to generate some pink noise.

be aware that creating patches at bedroom volume can lead to tones that don't translate at volume. fletcher munson will come into effect and increase your sensitivity to the high end and the added volume will allow the speaker to reproduce some very low frequencies
 
Guitbasstarrist said:
Hi
Long story short:
I bought a RCF Art 712-A MK IV active monitor to amplify my Axe FX II+. I'm irritated because this setup sounds so "hifi". Lots, lots, massive lots of boomy bass low end and crisp sparkling hights. To make it sound remotly like a guitar I must compensate it with quite extreme eq adjustments. Is that a typical experience a newbie to modeling amp technique must go through?

Short story long:
Background:
I've rather been a bassist than a guitarist for the last decades. Ok. Let's be honest. I'm not a guitarist at all. I only happen to own one and despite knowing better, my band mates currently insist on me using it at them. I don't own a guitar amplifier/cab yet and have used the "oddments" of our other guitarrist during the last year. These "oddments" consist of a 4x12" Marshall cabinet and various amps by Orange, Engel, Marshall - quality gear not to be sneezed at. I never really dug into the quest for the perfect sound because any other practice session that other guitarist might have fallen victiom to his urge to swap gear. I always delayed buying my own amp/cab because I had no clue what to buy and no interest to find out. Hey, I used to be bassist! I don't suffer from G.A.S. (gear aquisition syndrom). But now that I've raised a comfortable budget to buy about anything that might be reasonable, I'm running out of excuses for any further delay.
Also I happen to be the guy who takes care of our home recordings, multitracking and mixing. Thus I'm neither new to guitar sound in the room nor on recording. And that is what biased me to go the route of amp modeling instead of a classic tube amp / 4x12" cab.
First I tried the Axe FX with our mini budget PA (QSC GX5 amp & 2x 450W HK Speakers). That sounded like crap. I blame the cheap PA. Then I tried it in combination with a Engel amp / 4x12" Marshall cab. That sounds quite good, but when I walk "the path of amp modeling" I don't apprehend why I should burden me with a colourizing amp/cab. Thus I bought that RCF 712-A thingie. Yet I only have played it on my own, without the band. And it does sound waaaaaay better than our PA. But that is psychoacustics, because there's that cosy low end that will be drowned out by the bass and that sparkling treble that will be swallowed by cymbals and overall noise. No way that sound will cut through. But to make it cut through I'd have to apply massive eq. Is that the way it should be or is it a "feature" specific to these monitors?
Click to expand...
I think it is fairly normal to do some pretty drastic EQ. I normally use the high and low cuts in the cab block. Around 100hz and 6khz.
 
Yes, the RCF ART712 is a bit hi fi. It seems to be tuned more for DJ use. I have the RCF310 and it's similar.
RCF NX series are much flatter (and more articulate) than the ART series. I've owned a bunch of the ART models.

If you are trying to keep up with a 4x12 cab, I suggest putting your speaker on a tripod (likely the lowest setting). You'll be surprised how much more coverage you get.
 
Guitbasstarrist said:
Hi
Long story short:
I bought a RCF Art 712-A MK IV active monitor to amplify my Axe FX II+. I'm irritated because this setup sounds so "hifi". Lots, lots, massive lots of boomy bass low end and crisp sparkling hights. To make it sound remotly like a guitar I must compensate it with quite extreme eq adjustments. Is that a typical experience a newbie to modeling amp technique must go through?

Short story long:
Background:
I've rather been a bassist than a guitarist for the last decades. Ok. Let's be honest. I'm not a guitarist at all. I only happen to own one and despite knowing better, my band mates currently insist on me using it at them. I don't own a guitar amplifier/cab yet and have used the "oddments" of our other guitarrist during the last year. These "oddments" consist of a 4x12" Marshall cabinet and various amps by Orange, Engel, Marshall - quality gear not to be sneezed at. I never really dug into the quest for the perfect sound because any other practice session that other guitarist might have fallen victiom to his urge to swap gear. I always delayed buying my own amp/cab because I had no clue what to buy and no interest to find out. Hey, I used to be bassist! I don't suffer from G.A.S. (gear aquisition syndrom). But now that I've raised a comfortable budget to buy about anything that might be reasonable, I'm running out of excuses for any further delay.
Also I happen to be the guy who takes care of our home recordings, multitracking and mixing. Thus I'm neither new to guitar sound in the room nor on recording. And that is what biased me to go the route of amp modeling instead of a classic tube amp / 4x12" cab.
First I tried the Axe FX with our mini budget PA (QSC GX5 amp & 2x 450W HK Speakers). That sounded like crap. I blame the cheap PA. Then I tried it in combination with a Engel amp / 4x12" Marshall cab. That sounds quite good, but when I walk "the path of amp modeling" I don't apprehend why I should burden me with a colourizing amp/cab. Thus I bought that RCF 712-A thingie. Yet I only have played it on my own, without the band. And it does sound waaaaaay better than our PA. But that is psychoacustics, because there's that cosy low end that will be drowned out by the bass and that sparkling treble that will be swallowed by cymbals and overall noise. No way that sound will cut through. But to make it cut through I'd have to apply massive eq. Is that the way it should be or is it a "feature" specific to these monitors?
Click to expand...

I know that feeling! But @Rex and other here help me understand what to do (see his post)....and yes as @simeon said Global Eq is your friend. Best of luck.
 
Apologies if you've already done this, but have you cut the cabinet block low frequency response to something guitar-cab-like ie. 70-80Hz, and similar with the high frequency? That'd get rid of the bass you mention and all the high frequency content. This can make FRFR speakers respond more like guitar cabs which don't give back everything you put in.
 
Thank you again!
So the RCF Art 712 is known to be a bit 'hifi like'. That's exactly, what I wanted to know. Instead of trying to compensate that character of this monitor I'd rather send it back and buy something that suits my needs better. Even though I could try the RCF NX series, I decided to have a go at a pair of Yamaha DXR10. They seem to be quite popular in the Kemper forum. From what I read there, they are prominent in the mid range and rather lack than boost the low end of the frequency range. If they work for me - good, it would save me some money opposed to buying a pair of RCF NX10 (or 12). On the other hand I feel a bit uncomfortable because I still haven't given up the idea to be a bassist, too. Not that it really matters, but if my new guitar monitor could double as bass monitor too - that would be a nice bonus.

As for tuning the sound using the frequency response in the cabinet block of the axe: Thank you for the advice. I'll try it. The idea to fix the sound in the model rather than crippling it with eq in post sounds good to me. There are so many parameters to fiddle with and there's so much to learn.

And I have to find a better way to carry the Axe FX. Carrying it in a 5U 19" plywood rack when you travel 1h by train and bus is not ideal.
 
Now that the Yamaha DXR10 boxes arrived I'm really disappointed. Yes it's true that they don't exaggerate the low - because they are completely unable to reproduce any of it! I rather doubt that they deserve to be labelled "FRFR". They sound so cheap and honky. If I'd setup my sound using them only - how could I be sure I didn't add too much bass for FOH? In direct comparison I'd prefer to tame the RCF Art 712 with heavy eq over those DXR10.
Maybe I should give the RCF NX 712 a try. But unless they blow me away I'll probably stick with the ART 712.

Strange. In this - and even more in the Kemper forum - I've read so many enthusiastic opinions on the DXR10. Maybe there's something wrong with my ears or perception.
 
Guitbasstarrist said:
Now that the Yamaha DXR10 boxes arrived I'm really disappointed. Yes it's true that they don't exaggerate the low - because they are completely unable to reproduce any of it! I rather doubt that they deserve to be labelled "FRFR". They sound so cheap and honky. If I'd setup my sound using them only - how could I be sure I didn't add too much bass for FOH? In direct comparison I'd prefer to tame the RCF Art 712 with heavy eq over those DXR10.
Maybe I should give the RCF NX 712 a try. But unless they blow me away I'll probably stick with the ART 712.

Strange. In this - and even more in the Kemper forum - I've read so many enthusiastic opinions on the DXR10. Maybe there's something wrong with my ears or perception.
Click to expand...
do you have the low cut on?
 
Re the Yamaha DXR10's. They are definitely good - not the best but good enough that if you don't like them it's likely that you won't find any FRFR monitor that you'll like. FRFR is not for everyone. If you like and are used to a 4x12, get a 4x12 and a power amp instead (like a Matrix GT1000).

Have a look at this Frequency Response chart:
http://download.yamaha.com/api/asse...ite-master.prod.exp.yamaha.com&asset_id=52934

You can see that the Yamaha's are almost flat between say 150Hz and 5000Hz, which is where the guitar lives as an instrument.
 
hi and low cut.. the monitor is way more capable of producing sounds a guitar cabinet cannot. Guitar cab = giant filter. But when you want those sparkling highs, they are easy to get.
 
chris said:
do you have the low cut on?
Click to expand...
I double checked: No the low cut ("HPF" switch) was turned off on the DXR10. (Of course I verified, that the HPF switch does work as expected.) I also played with that "D-Contour" switch. In FOH mode (some kind of loudness function) it sounded even worse like a speaker being pumped with bass freqencies it simply can't reproduce.

Johan Allard said:
Have a look at this Frequency Response chart:
Click to expand...
Very strange. My ears tell me a different story about the DXR10 than that frequency chart. Yet I don't believe that all those happy users are ignorant idiots.

With the RCF ART 712 I must cut off anything roughly below 130 Hz to make it sound like a guitar. But I can get there. By now I learned how to taylor that freq range using the settings of the amp and cab simulations and don't even need the global eq any more. Still all of the factory presets sound unusable in a rock band context - regardless which of the monitors I tried. Too boomy and yet no guts, many too screechy or fragile. Some may sound pleasing in a living room environment but are run over and ravished when the rest of the band gangs up.
 
Most of us are actually cutting quite a bit in the low end, either in the cab block or you could use the High Pass Filter in the DXR10. It's not a bad idea to use either the 100Hz or the 120Hz highpass filter setting. Have a look at the Frequency Response Chart for your typical guitar speaker, in this case a Celestion Vintage 30: https://celestion.com/product/1/vintage_30/. You can see that it drops dramatically below 150Hz and then above 5kHz (hence my comment that that's where guitar lives as an instrument). Obviously this is in isolation and whatever cab you put it in will primarily affect the low end, and the number of speakers will affect as well. But it's a good generalisation anyway.

Of course you could be djenting all day long, in which case I could offer no relevant commentary. But I play in a loud 4 piece rock band and I'd be happy to play a preset like what Yek posted the other day: https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/it’s-funny-that.131447/#post-1556209 using my DXR10 all day long. And that's with stock cab #132 with HPF at 150Hz and LPF at 7kHz.
 
Now I tried the RCF NX 12 sma. That's it. I'll keep it. Even though the ART 712 does a good job when it comes down to well defined, tight punching low end. But the NX 12 has the definition in the mid range that is missing in the ART 712. And the NX 12 is capable of providing sufficiant low end without caricaturing.
Regarding the Yamaha DRX 10 ... it was the worst these three candidates. I don't understand why it's so popular. It simply sounds like a cheap, overcharged boombox that is unable to handle full range frequency spectrum.
 
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