Need tone help into FX loop-in on combo amp

Toby Moore

Toby Moore

Member
Please keep in mind I’m very novice dealing with the more detailed AX8 parameters and haven’t had time to read through tons of forum posts regarding issues getting good tone into combo amps.

I am aware that going stereo into a PA is the best way to go and I use the PA route at church with great results. My problem is for my 80s rock band... my PA tone is not cutting thru the mix with the warm mids I want and the sound is grainy when going direct into the fx return on my JSX 212 or my Blackstar 60 Soloist.
Although I know it’s an inferior unit compared to the AX8, I get great tones from my Zoom G9.2TT when ran into the fx loop in of both my tube combo amps.

Is there a simple adjustment I can make in the parameters that will get better tone running the AX8 into combo amps? I’m trying to get rid of the grainy shrill sound without activating the cab block when running into my combo amps.
Thanks for taking time to read this and any help you can provide!
 
Try turning Power Amp simulation off as well. I pulled this from the Wiki and even though it's referring to stand alone tube power amps, these tips would still apply to your situation.

When connecting your Axe-Fx II or AX8 to a traditional tube power amp for guitars, such as a Mesa 2:90 or VHT/Fryette:

  • It's usually best to switch off the power amp simulation, globally (Global menu) and in the Amp block (Sag at 0).
  • If power amp modeling is not disabled: set Low and High Resonance in the Amp block at zero.
  • Set the controls on the tube power amp as neutral as possible.
  • Disable cab modeling.
  • Turn down Speaker Drive and Speaker Comp in the Amp block, because these parameters are designed to be used with a cabinet model, not with a guitar cab.
http://wiki.fractalaudio.com/axefx2/index.php?title=Power_amp_and_speaker_cabinet
 
If you are running your AX8 into the effects return, then you want the cab sim on. Running into the effects return on most amps will bypass the preamp stage and just use the power amp stage. I run my AX8 into the effects return of a Line 6 Flextone II XL and it sounds awesome. I have the cab sim on for all my presets. I do use a few different cabs, but mostly stock cabs (I like #34 a lot).
 
Simple EQ is going to be your best bet! Aside from the obvious, power amp and cab sims either using them on or off maybe start with that and see if it works for you.

I tend to be of the camp if I'm running into the power section of a tube amp I turn the power amp sim off same with the cab sim if I'm running through a guitar cab.

That for the most part simplifys it! for me at least and I'm left with the preamp sim I'm using coupled with EQ settings bass, mid, treb, in the preamp section or adding post GEQ or PEQ blocks to further add or subtract and finally output EQ (kind of redundant) whatever you need to get the sound you are looking for or make adjustments on the fly.

A reference tone always helps unless you are confident the sound you are hearing will translate with the rest of the stage mix. It might take a few tries to get the sound you are after but it is totally possible to do it just takes a little effort.

For the most part the AX8 is a very powerful tool but in your case/application you still need to know the basics.
 
Toby Moore said:
Please keep in mind I’m very novice dealing with the more detailed AX8 parameters and haven’t had time to read through tons of forum posts regarding issues getting good tone into combo amps.

I am aware that going stereo into a PA is the best way to go and I use the PA route at church with great results. My problem is for my 80s rock band... my PA tone is not cutting thru the mix with the warm mids I want and the sound is grainy when going direct into the fx return on my JSX 212 or my Blackstar 60 Soloist.
Although I know it’s an inferior unit compared to the AX8, I get great tones from my Zoom G9.2TT when ran into the fx loop in of both my tube combo amps.

Is there a simple adjustment I can make in the parameters that will get better tone running the AX8 into combo amps? I’m trying to get rid of the grainy shrill sound without activating the cab block when running into my combo amps.
Thanks for taking time to read this and any help you can provide!
Click to expand...
I've had issues with certain amps effects loops as well. For these amps I've had success going into the front. Try running into the front of your Blackstar set just on the edge of breakup. Keep the amp modeling on and disable your cab block to begin with. Also try with and without the Power amp sim, you can turn it off by setting the Supply Sag parameter in Power Supply page to zero. You may need to turn your treble down on the amp more than you would think as well.
 
Geezerjohn said:
If you are running your AX8 into the effects return, then you want the cab sim on. Running into the effects return on most amps will bypass the preamp stage and just use the power amp stage. I run my AX8 into the effects return of a Line 6 Flextone II XL and it sounds awesome. I have the cab sim on for all my presets. I do use a few different cabs, but mostly stock cabs (I like #34 a lot).
Click to expand...

Thanks John. I guess its very different from my G9.2TT which I turn off the cab sim and it sounds great. Keeping the cab sim on using that board sounds too dull with no dynamics. I will try to AX8 with cab block on.
 
Thanks everyone for all the different suggestions. I will try each of them and see what works best in my case.
So what some of you are saying is I can turn the Power Amp sim off and yet still use the amp block to get my tone and overdrive/distortion?
Is the power amp sim inside the amp block?
Again , apologize about my ignorance on this stuff.
 
You can turn off the Power Amp modeling and the Cab modeling in the 'Global' menu.
 
Alright, here's an update since you guys were so helpful.

I ran thru all the recommended changes and lessened the high shrill a little, but never got a decent tone going into my FX returns on my Peavey JSX212 with 6L6's, my Blackstar HT Soloist 60 with EL34's, or my Blackstar HT5R.

But here is where I really think something is out of whack. I figured I would try a 4 cable method (and yes, I have hooked it up correctly) and tried using the combo amps gain and only using the compression before the FX loop block and only had delay and reverb running after the block. Still, a shrill, very little bass sound using the actual combo amps gain channel! :/ Even more screwy was when I disabled every active block ( the compression, delay and reverb ) and the sound still was very different on the combo vs the amps natural tone (without the AX8).
Is there anything I am overlooking? I made sure the power-amp and cab was off in Global, as well as a flat EQ.
Other settings in the I/O are ,,
In 1 Pad at 6.0 db
Out 1 nominal level at +4.0 dbu
In 2 nominal level at +4.0 dbu
Out 2 Boost Pad at 0.0 db

I did notice my Out 1 and Out 2 (on audio page of I/O) were set to Stereo.... but don't know why that would effect that much tone if NO blocks are even active pre or post FX Loop. ??????

Thanks again in advance!
 
Just from my experience (since I have tried it and use it usually for Tone-Stack / Preamp Matching):
Deactivating Cab+Poweramp-Sim in Global menu, Out 1 directly to the return and everything is fine.

Do you have any sound files and a preset?

As for the 4 cable problem:
Sounds to me like an impedance mismatch. Experienced such an issue one time with a TC Electronic G-System, sucked away my tone.

I would recommend to put the AX8 solely in front, without any active Blocks (I think in Bank 64 is a 'route through' setting. Is the tone affected? If not then it sounds like problems with the FX-Loop. Is this a parallel or serial FX-Loop? You may check this by plugging in a cable in the FX-Send, this deactivates the signal path on serial amps. If you then play and here something, the loops are leaking.
 
moerker said:
Just from my experience (since I have tried it and use it usually for Tone-Stack / Preamp Matching):
Deactivating Cab+Poweramp-Sim in Global menu, Out 1 directly to the return and everything is fine.

Do you have any sound files and a preset?

As for the 4 cable problem:
Sounds to me like an impedance mismatch. Experienced such an issue one time with a TC Electronic G-System, sucked away my tone.

I would recommend to put the AX8 solely in front, without any active Blocks (I think in Bank 64 is a 'route through' setting. Is the tone affected? If not then it sounds like problems with the FX-Loop. Is this a parallel or serial FX-Loop? You may check this by plugging in a cable in the FX-Send, this deactivates the signal path on serial amps. If you then play and here something, the loops are leaking.
Click to expand...


Never took a picture of a preset. Do I just do a snap shot on AX8 Edit and send you that?
 
Just export the Preset in AX8 Edit and post it here. You find it under 'Preset'.

I will give it a quick check if I am home.
 

Worked great at my Engl Ironball. No sound loss from what I hear, and also no appearing additional higher frequencies.
But the extra gate was annoying ;)

Hummmm....

Next things would be making sound files. Since your preset is (obiously) working, there might be a flaw at a different point. You've got some Mics and an interface? Would be nice to hear the Amp-Sound to get a feeling for the "graininess".

Also, from your stating about the 4CM problems, I would check how serial your FX-Loops are. Simply by putting one open ended cable in the FX-send an one in the FX return (making a real break). Guitar on the input and play something. If you hear nothing it's great because serial, if not, like said above - parallel. Will introduce problems to your tone as long as your signal has dry components. That would explain problems if the AX8 is in the FX-Loop.

Do you have changed anything in the global Out Equalizers (Setup - Global Pg "Out1" or "Out2")?

Something smells wrong here, but it is not your preset. And I am honestly confused.
 
moerker said:
Worked great at my Engl Ironball. No sound loss from what I hear, and also no appearing additional higher frequencies.
But the extra gate was annoying ;)

Hummmm....

Next things would be making sound files. Since your preset is (obiously) working, there might be a flaw at a different point. You've got some Mics and an interface? Would be nice to hear the Amp-Sound to get a feeling for the "graininess".

Also, from your stating about the 4CM problems, I would check how serial your FX-Loops are. Simply by putting one open ended cable in the FX-send an one in the FX return (making a real break). Guitar on the input and play something. If you hear nothing it's great because serial, if not, like said above - parallel. Will introduce problems to your tone as long as your signal has dry components. That would explain problems if the AX8 is in the FX-Loop.

Do you have changed anything in the global Out Equalizers (Setup - Global Pg "Out1" or "Out2")?

Something smells wrong here, but it is not your preset. And I am honestly confused.
Click to expand...

First off, I can't thank you enough for spending the time on this.

When you ran thru the ENGL, did you use an AX8 amp sim for gain or just go clean and use gain from the ENGL in a 4 cable method?
To keep things easy on testing/recording the sound, I think I'll just use AX8 amp sim, no cab block, and run into the FX Return of one of my combo amps. I hope that would give you a good example of the grainy sound. I'll also try to do the same with my older Zoom G9.2TT so you can here that there is no issue with the Combo amp.
I'm not very good at setting up vids or recordings so it may take me a day to get to it, but I'll try to give you a good sample of the issues discussed.
 
Toby Moore said:
First off, I can't thank you enough for spending the time on this.

When you ran thru the ENGL, did you use an AX8 amp sim for gain or just go clean and use gain from the ENGL in a 4 cable method?
To keep things easy on testing/recording the sound, I think I'll just use AX8 amp sim, no cab block, and run into the FX Return of one of my combo amps. I hope that would give you a good example of the grainy sound. I'll also try to do the same with my older Zoom G9.2TT so you can here that there is no issue with the Combo amp.
I'm not very good at setting up vids or recordings so it may take me a day to get to it, but I'll try to give you a good sample of the issues discussed.
Click to expand...
So, I set up 4CM with the Ironball in FX-Loop. Tried the drive from your patch on the clean channel, sounded beautiful. Checked also an Amp-Sim with deactivated FX-Loop, no Cab-Sim and activated/deactivated Power-Amp Modeling (so, Amp Block direct in Ironball Poweramp) - also no issues.
 
moerker said:
So, I set up 4CM with the Ironball in FX-Loop. Tried the drive from your patch on the clean channel, sounded beautiful. Checked also an Amp-Sim with deactivated FX-Loop, no Cab-Sim and activated/deactivated Power-Amp Modeling (so, Amp Block direct in Ironball Poweramp) - also no issues.
Click to expand...
I think the next step I need to make is checking all my cables and other possible issues not related to the AX8. I just really think it’s something internal in the AX8 since the combo amps sound great on their own. It’s almost like the AX8 is sending some extra gain on distorted settings because in clean settings I’ve tried with four cable method or direct into the loop return on the combo amps sounds good. It’s really weird. I’ll definitely let you know how some of my other test come out to hopefully troubleshoot.
 
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