Need Help!! Tone matches all sound the same = NASEL!

I think the different guitar shouldn't make that much of a difference.

Example:
I have the Tosin Thump! DVD that came with his patches and him giving tutorials in Axe-Edit on the DVD. The patches have no cab block and a tone match of his 2x12 OS cab. A lot of artists use multiple guitars such as Tosin. The tonematch is harsh and nasalish as mentioned on both my active EMG and passive guitars.

I can plug very different guitars into any tube amp and the tones don't turn to complete ass.
 
I can plug very different guitars into any tube amp and the tones don't turn to complete ass.

I can plug different guitars into my Axe FX using the same preset and the tones don't turn to complete ass. You're missing the point, I think.
 
Would be kind of cool if the tone match process analyzed the input signal, flattened it eq wise, then did the tone match, that way the guitar wouldn't matter?
 
I can plug different guitars into my Axe FX using the same preset and the tones don't turn to complete ass. You're missing the point, I think.

I just meant that the tone match EQ curve shouldn't be affected so greatly by the guitar, but I guess when I think of it - the axe would need to be able to generate white noise to create tone matches. . . Like the Kemper?

If tone match only really works with the original guitar. . . well that sucks.
 
the axe would need to be able to generate white noise to create tone matches. .

It can generate noise.

If tone match only really works with the original guitar. . . well that sucks.

Maybe some automated Kemper-like process would be useful to some people.

But Kemper profiles aren't that universal either. Just look for the last Ola's blind test where he profiled an amp and then tried to plug a screamer into its input.
 
I agree that the axe can sometimes sound a bit nasal, especially when I try out presets made by others. I don't just experience this with tone matched presets. I belive there are two important factors here:
1. When the Bright switch is engaged, which for me is very often is, i find that the value of the wheel to it's right (in axe-edit, sorry I don't remember the name) is often set too high for my liking. It is per default around 2 o'clock, and I typically end up having it somewhere between 9-12 o'clock. Especially when bypassing poweramp and cab sim, going thru real power amp and cabs i found this little change worked wonders for me.
2. Even more importantly, this is where your monitors can play tricks on you. In my studio I mainly use a ns-10+subwoofer (combo), but if I monitor mys sound throught my pair of mid-sized Genelc's or my Atomic FRFR, I often find that they "add" a bit of "nasal'ness" to the sound.
 
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I agree that the axe can sometimes sound a bit nasal, especially when I try out presets made by others. I don't just experience this with tone matched presets. I belive there are two important factors here:
1. When the Bright switch is engaged, which for me is very often is, i find that the value of the wheel to it's right (in axe-edit, sorry I don't remember the name) is often set too high for my liking. It is per default around 2 o'clock, and I typically end up having it somewhere between 9-12 o'clock. Especially when bypassing poweramp and cab sim, going thru real power amp and cabs i found this little change worked wonders for me.
2. Even more importantly, this is where your monitors can play tricks on you. In my studio I mainly use a ns-10+subwoofer (combo), but if I monitor mys sound throught my pair of mid-sized Genelc's or my Atomic FRFR, I often find that they "add" a bit of "nasal'ness" to the sound.

The knob is Bright Cap. I will have to try this out.

I have found through testing after shooting some of my own matches off of stems, that tone matches shot on previous firmwares greatly cause the nasal issue. Also, the source of the tone match can make a big difference as well. If the file is not hi-passed and was a bounce from say a master bus - there are some high frequencies that weren't in the original tone that are now in the bounced file.
 
You guys dissing TMs are full of sh*t, IMHO. Tone match is one of the coolest features of the AxeFx and is amazing when used correctly.

Guitar makes a difference, sure, but it is hardly this completely altering thing some of you guys are painting it as, if you have several to pick from as most of use do, it is not hard to get one that has a similar response to the authors. There are all kinds of variables you are not going to be able to recreate when using someone else presets, gear, or trying to cop their tones in general so making such a big deal about it here is ridiculous, IMHO. It is not like every guitar has a radically unique freq, signature.

A TM can also be shot in such a way the guitar is not even part of the equation. You can also do a bunch of other fun/useful things with the TM block.

Some of the best presets I have are barely tweaked TMs I did not shoot myself. Dan Hazer's amazing Lay It Down TM, A couple of Guitarjon's Metallica presets, Singtall's EVH preset (may be literally my favorite preset on my Axe). Danny Danzi's TMs got a lot of love from a lot folks, too.

A lot of the TMs I have shot myself I find the nasal quality, it can be a PITA to get a good TM so I DO believe there are many poorly shot TMs or some that are more difficult have translate from one rig to another. I'm not saying they are all great. But dismissing this tool is dumb given how awesome it is. IMHO.

FWIW my nasal ones tend to be matched from a source like an individual recording on YouTube or whatever. I think sometimes this might be an effect of unaccounted for natural room reverb or similar effect, d*cking with EQ match by filtering and enhancing certain frequencies in the aggregate spectrum. Your ear is ordering it correctly and in the vid it sounds natural but it is not part of the guitar tone and sounds wrong when applied to its spectrum in a preset. This is why Cliff uses DI style presets when he has done them, I would guess it is a much purer measurement and eliminates far more variability.

Obviously, the best TMs are those you shoot yourself with the most variables controlled or eliminated. But, like others presets some will translate really well to your rig and others won't. For me it has definitely been worth looking through.
 
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Like I mentioned before I am thinking it may be due more to firmware changes.

The DI's I have been tone matching myself are raw tones from producer packs. The results have been good except for added high end. Throwing a filter on after usually solves the issue. I am going to try some live matching tomorrow. I think some of that high end is being introduced by doing too long (15sec) of a sample.

The original tone match that brought me to this thread was Tosin's Q1 live preset with a tone match of his Port City cab that they used live as well as some of GuitarJon's older patches. They were almost unusable in Q4 - and the reason that a guitar/player made that kind of difference in the patch didn't make sense.

If I can find some time I will shoot a video.
 
I'll give you my 2 cents, which won't amount to much since I have no clue what goes on. However....

I've religiously used TM from the day I bought my AXE. It's one of the coolest features and my main reason for having the MKII and the XL+. It's helped me create so many sounds, I can't even begin to tell you. All of the above said, I'll give you my opinion.

I've had a few sounds with TM blocks in my arsenal for quite a few years. The only thing that has altered them is FW updates where the amps have changed. This nasal thing people are talking about....I've never experienced it OTHER THAN when I have used an amp that just doesn't work for a particular sound or when a monitor/cab may not reveal the source in a good way.

For example, the 5150 type amps aren't going to get an old Eddie sound using a TM. You're going to exploit the highs in that amp even more, and bring out an almost transistor, fake sound out of the amp. For certain sounds, you gotta choose an amp that has major tube characteristics. That means, more of a dark, warm, mid range type tone with a good saturation. Or, you could try a cab along with the TM....I have tried that with success with a few tones.

When I get people that hire me to create custom tones for them, the amp selection is as HUGE as having their DI signal to work with. I created a George Lynch tone for a guy where the amp we used, certainly wasn't one George would use and it was one I have never heard of. But for the song he was wanting me to nail, no other amp touched what this one did.

Those of you that have tried my VH patch and like it. That amp I used isn't too popular with most people that I read on here. BUT, that amp nailed pinch harms just like early Eddie, and has a nice break-up when coupled with a compressor. Anyone can get a similar tone when tone matching, but there are certain elements within an amp that you need to seriously consider when doing any type of tone copping.

The amp selection alone takes me about 2 hours + when I create custom tones for people. I literally go through every amp using various settings to see if it helps to pick up the artifacts, good and bad, just like the stuff I'm copping. You pick the wrong amp while tone matching, and you'll get a dick sandwich with extra veins. I'm dead serious. When I was choosing the VH amp while tone matching "Unchained", that nasal sound was very apparent in quite a few amps. But once you find the right one that just has the amp voicing and characteristics that you need in your tone, you just know it's right. There will be no nasal artifacts.

That said, there are only about 10-12 amps that I absolutely dislike in my AXE units. The rest are all killer and you should be able to tone match anything with them and get close. But to really nail a TM, you have to pick the right amp and really listen to what you are copping. Listen to every aspect of the sound, etch it in your head and then proceed with your amp selection.

The tone match block is only copping what you put into it. Next, I sincerely believe your listening environment makes a huge difference like someone already mentioned. Quick example, I had a client come here for me to do custom presets. He brought his matrix cab and power amp. He wanted his own version of an Eddie sound using his signal.

What we got was a nasal, horrible sound that sounded nothing like Eddie....or so we thought. Then we played Eddie through his cab and it sounded the same. Nasal, and nothing like Eddie at all. So if I were tone matching through his rig, I'd be pissing in the wind because Eddie sounded nothing like Eddie through that cab from the start.

If your sound source doesn't sound good coming through your cab that you are going to cop, your final outcome should sound the same....unfortunately. I use studio monitors here that are calibrated and my room is tuned. When I play something here, it sounds like it should sound. Now, for live tone creation, I can't rely as heavily on my studio rig. I literally have to tweak once it comes through my cab.

Now this is where things get strange. When I pipe Eddie through my greeback cab, it sounds like Eddie in my room. This is what I tweaked my live tone against. So in certain situations, what you hear is definitely what you are stuck with.

Sometimes good, sometimes bad. In the case of the client that came to my studio, there was no way I could create a tone from his cab and make it something I would enjoy. That's not a knock on the matrix, that is just to say....guitar sounds from national acts sometimes don't sound very good coming out of that. It's like trying to mix in a room that isn't tuned with uncalibrated monitors, and then you go out to your car to listen to what you did.

You find that in your car, you hear things differently. So you take notes and go back to your studio, and try to mix something you can't hear on that gear that you heard in your car, follow me?

That's called compensation where you try to create something or make a decision based on sounds that are not transferring properly. That's how I felt with the Matrix monitor. What came out of it from the source wasn't something I liked, and just about all of us like EVH's sound in "Unchained".

Anyway, those are my thoughts and experience on the whole TM thing. It's far from useless on my end and has made a world of difference for the better in my realm. I can totally understand where it may not be for everyone, but definitely keep some of the stuff I've said here in mind when doing it. It may just help you. :)

-Danny
 
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I'll give you my 2 cents, which won't amount to much since I have no clue what goes on. However....

I've religiously used TM from the day I bought my AXE. It's one of the coolest features and my mail reason for having the MKII and the XL+. It's helped me create so many sounds, I can't even begin to tell you. All of the above said, I'll give you my opinion.

I've had a few sounds with TM blocks in my arsenal for quite a few years. The only thing that has altered them is FW updates where the amps have changed. This nasal thing people are talking about....I've never experienced it OTHER THAN when I have used an amp that just doesn't work for a particular sound or when a monitor/cab may not reveal the source in a good way.

For example, the 5150 type amps aren't going to get an old Eddie sound using a TM. You're going to exploit the highs in that amp even more, and bring out an almost transistor, fake sound out of the amp. For certain sounds, you gotta choose an amp that has major tube characteristics. That means, more of a dark, warm, mid range type tone with a good saturation. Or, you could try a cab along with the TM....I have tried that with success with a few tones.

When I get people that hire me to create custom tones for them, the amp selection is as HUGE as having their DI signal to work with. I created a George Lynch tone for a guy where the amp we used, certainly wasn't one George would use and it was one I have never heard of. But for the song he was wanting me to nail, no other amp touched what this one did.

Those of you that have tried my VH patch and like it. That amp I used isn't too popular with most people that I read on here. BUT, that amp nailed pinch harms just like early Eddie, and has a nice break-up when coupled with a compressor. Anyone can get a similar tone when tone matching, but there are certain elements within an amp that you need to seriously consider when doing any type of tone copping.

The amp selection alone takes me about 2 hours + when I create custom tones for people. I literally go through every amp using various settings to see if it helps to pick up the artifacts, good and bad, just like the stuff I'm copping. You pick the wrong amp while tone matching, and you'll get a dick sandwich with extra veins. I'm dead serious. When I was choosing the VH amp while tone matching "Unchained", that nasal sound was very apparent in quite a few amps. But once you find the right one that just has the amp voicing and characteristics that you need in your tone, you just know it's right. There will be no nasal artifacts.

That said, there are only about 10-12 amps that I absolutely dislike in my AXE units. The rest are all killer and you should be able to tone match anything with them and get close. But to really nail a TM, you have to pick the right amp and really listen to what you are copping. Listen to every aspect of the sound, etch it in your head and then proceed with your amp selection.

The tone match block is only copping what you put into it. Next, I sincerely believe your listening environment makes a huge difference like someone already mentioned. Quick example, I had a client come here for me to do custom presets. He brought his matrix cab and power amp. He wanted his own version of an Eddie sound using his signal.

What we got was a nasal, horrible sound that sounded nothing like Eddie....or so we thought. Then we played Eddie through his cab and it sounded the same. Nasal, and nothing like Eddie at all. So if I were tone matching through his rig, I'd be pissing in the wind because Eddie sounded nothing like Eddie through that cab from the start.

If your sound source doesn't sound good coming through your cab that you are going to cop, your final outcome should sound the same....unfortunately. I use studio monitors here that are calibrated and my room is tuned. When I play something here, it sounds like it should sound. Now, for live tone creation, I can't rely as heavily on my studio rig. I literally have to tweak once it comes through my cab.

Now this is where things get strange. When I pipe Eddie through my greeback cab, it sounds like Eddie in my room. This is what I tweaked my live tone against. So in certain situations, what you hear is definitely what you are stuck with. Sometimes good, sometimes bad. In the case of the client that came to my studio, there was no way I could create a tone from his cab and make it something I would enjoy. That's not a knock on the matrix, that is just to say....guitar sounds from national acts sometimes don't sound very good coming out of that. It's like trying to mix in a room that isn't tuned with uncalibrated monitors, and then you go out to your car to listen to what you did.

You find that in your car, you hear things differently. So you take notes and go back to your studio, and try to mix something you can't hear, follow me? That's how I felt with the Matrix monitor. What came out of it from the source wasn't something I liked, and just about all of us like EVH's sound in "Unchained".

Anyway, those are my thoughts and experience on the whole TM thing. It's far from useless on my end and has made a world of difference for the better in my realm. I can totally understand where it may not be for everyone, but definitely keep some of the stuff I've said here in mind when doing it. It may just help you. :)

-Danny
Now this is the kind of stuff I hang out here for. Thanks, Danny, for a very detailed insight into what you do.
 
I couldn't do what I do the artists on Fractal's roster without Tone Matching. It works great if you've got great source material, and when you're trying to "close the gap" while matching the sound of a live amp, it provides great insights (when the match is FLAT, you're done and can remove the block!)
 
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I couldn't do what I do the artists on Fractal's roster without Tone Matching. It works great if you've got great source material, and when you're trying to "close the gap" while matching the sound of a live amp, it provides great insights (when the match is FLAT, you're done and can remove the block!)
I can attest without violating any confidentiality agreements, I have seen @Admin M@ work his voodoo with the tone match block in real time and it just works. As @Danny Danzi said though, you have to be close to your target sonically to get stellar results.

If you are trying to make a classic strat & Marshall Silver amp block sound like a desired Les Paul through a Rockman track, then a Tone Match block is not going to close that wide of a gap.
 
I can attest without violating any confidentiality agreements, I have seen @Admin M@ work his voodoo with the tone match block in real time and it just works. As @Danny Danzi said though, you have to be close to your target sonically to get stellar results.

If you are trying to make a classic strat & Marshall Silver amp block sound like a desired Les Paul through a Rockman track, then a Tone Match block is not going to close that wide of a gap.

I'd love to sit in on a @Admin M@ session. I tried to nail a sound the other day that I just couldn't get no matter how hard I tried. And let me tell ya, I tried for about 3 days and just wasn't happy. Thankfully that's the first time that's ever happened, but I hope it never happens again.
 
I couldn't do what I do the artists on Fractal's roster without Tone Matching. It works great if you've got great source material, and when you're trying to "close the gap" while matching the sound of a live amp, it provides great insights (when the match is FLAT, you're done and can remove the block!)

maybe a short video of you demonstrating that would be awesome. 10 ways to skin a cat, always good knowing another way to accomplish something.
 
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