NAMM 2014: Black Widow unveils tube-based modelling preamp

webe123

Inspired
I would not mind seeing what this unit is about. I could see me using the axe fx II with it's effects with this unit if it sounds as good as it is described.


A question was asked over at the gear page about it JUST being a pre amp...
Here is a new product introduced at NAMM 2014 called The Black Widow...it uses 4 12AX7 tubes. Three channels.

QUESTION FROM POSTER on TGP: Just playing the devil's advocate here, but the idea of 'modeling' just a preamp is really pretty weak.

As an analogy, I briefly owned a Mesa Blue Angel a while back, which if y'all recall, has two sets of preamp tubes--EL84s, and 6V6s.

Guess what? They sound nearly identical. Why? Because the power amp and speaker are as much a part of the 'character' of the tone as the preamp.

IMHO, the reason digital modeling is so compelling is that you get to choose all the components in the signal chain...not just the preamp.


RESPONSE FROM REP FROM BLACK WIDOW: We completely agree with your thinking. Our first design sketches were a preamp, power amp and speaker simulator all in one. Problem 1, once you fit all the electronics inside it would be 6-8U. Problem 2, you price it our of reach of someone who only needs 1 of the 3. So separates are the way to go. 3. Power amps are coming, and they will be like nothing else ever produced.


I personally do not know how this will sound, but wished the guy luck in getting his product (Or Product's 1 preamp simulator with tubes and 1 poweramp simulator coming later on) out there.

Here is an article introducing the product....

NAMM 2014: Black Widow unveils tube-based modelling preamp | NAMM 2014: Black Widow unveils tube-based modelling preamp | Guitar News | MusicRadar

Thoughts anyone?
 
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I'd say it's a step backwards in technology. I don't get why one would concentrate on doing a tube based modeller? What is the target audience? Clearly not the traditional tube-users that will probably still prefer using the real deal instead of a modeller.

Also, the more hardware is involved (tubes, duh!), the more will the old drawbacks of classic amps make a comeback: Weight, replacing tubes, analog audio signal degredation. We don't want that; that's why we use digital modellers in the first place!


Don't get me wrong; the idea to split this into three different units and make people buy only what they want is great, but hybrid modeling is just not a good concept.
 
I'll buy one ASAP and when all the tubes fail, it'll only cost me £3k and my first born child to retube it. AND it's their interpretation of what amp X sounds like, not mine. Can you imagine trying to carry the damn thing? Gives me a hernia to think about it.
 
Don't get me wrong; the idea to split this into three different units and make people buy only what they want is great, but hybrid modeling is just not a good concept.

Not to mention the fact that it's already been done, Vox, Line 6 to mention a few. FAS has the modelin thing locked up pretty solid with Cliff's algos. Until the patents expire or he decides to share those secretes it will continue to remain that way, at least that's how I see it.
 
tubes_vs_modeler.jpg
 
Wow! You guys sure are a hard bunch...why don't you at LEAST give it a listen before judging it...or is that asking too much?

It may or may not have the problems you people describe...either WAY I would like to think I am open minded enough not to judge a product until I have at least heard it!

To do anything else is kind of close minded to me at least.
 
It's kind of like an extended Mesa Boogie Road King to me... they claim, however, that they have something else going on. I'll have to hear it in person to believe it. I'm not going to write it off just yet.
 
I'll buy one ASAP and when all the tubes fail, it'll only cost me £3k and my first born child to retube it. AND it's their interpretation of what amp X sounds like, not mine. Can you imagine trying to carry the damn thing? Gives me a hernia to think about it.

Preamp tubes aren't generally very expensive.
 
Wow! You guys sure are a hard bunch...why don't you at LEAST give it a listen before judging it...or is that asking too much?

I don't need to listen to it to know it's not for me. The main things that got me interested in the Axe in the first place were that I could get all of the tones I needed without the need to retube, carry forty tons of gear, or deal with the daily (er, minutely) inconsistencies of tubes.

Even if this could do EVERYTHING the Axe was capable of, and more, the realities of all things tube related just make me say, NO THANK YOU.


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From the point of view of a touring guitarist who lugged tons of stuff on stage, I would say the AxeFx makes it all possible and replacing tubes. But there is still some people who needed one or two tones, maybe three - a small amp, some pedals, a guitar.....they wont lug an AxeFx inkl. MFC101, GT1000FX and a 2x12 FRFR Cabinet on stage just to make their two or three tones louder (which weight just a quarter of the ton but much more than a small Princeton Reverb or a Carr Rambler plus a few pedals).....there is still a market for tube amps....it just got a bit smaller ;)
 
It's kind of like an extended Mesa Boogie Road King to me... they claim, however, that they have something else going on. I'll have to hear it in person to believe it. I'm not going to write it off just yet.
I used to own the very first RoadKing that Westside distribution took on a clinic tour for Academy of Sound almost 10 years ago. The thing was the heaviest amp that I've ever carried. It's sounded OK, but it never nailed the brown sound or even the Boogie sound, which is ironic.
Wow! You guys sure are a hard bunch...why don't you at LEAST give it a listen before judging it...or is that asking too much? It may or may not have the problems you people describe...either WAY I would like to think I am open minded enough not to judge a product until I have at least heard it! To do anything else is kind of close minded to me at least.
I suppose we're all die hard Fractal fans now and we're going to defend its honour and status blindly and aggressively until something else proves it's worth and suffers years of criticism like the Standard did. You are right though: we should welcome healthy competition. Without it, there is no progress. Do you think we would have Tone matching if it wasn't for the Kemper? Thanks for the reality check :).
 
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they wont lug an AxeFx inkl. MFC101, GT1000FX and a 2x12 FRFR Cabinet on stage just to make their two or three tones louder

For two or three tones I'd go with a 4 space rack, with a wireless guitar, a wireless IEM, an FC300, and an Axe-Fx. Lighter than most amps heads alone, easier to transport, and FAR easier to set up.

Unfortunately, I need a lot of tones, so I'll just have to go with, oh wait, pretty much the same thing. :D

Well, I've got a 6 space waiting for my Axe, because I have a few extra things in there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Wow! You guys sure are a hard bunch...why don't you at LEAST give it a listen before judging it...or is that asking too much?

It may or may not have the problems you people describe...either WAY I would like to think I am open minded enough not to judge a product until I have at least heard it!

To do anything else is kind of close minded to me at least.
It's not the sound that is the issue. I'm perfectly sure that (when done properly) it will sound stellar!

However, there are some things that are flawed in this concept by design. Those are things that can not be overcome, simply because these things are the advertised features.
It's basicly a tube preamp with switchable circuits. That means analog audio degredation. That means physical parts and weight. That means flexibility only within selected limits. That means physical limits. That means high cost. And last but not least missing upgradability.
Digital modelling can overcome all those things if the algorithms are good and memory/cpu power are sufficient. FAS proved, that, in fact, sophisticated algorithms can be so damn accurate, that most people will not notice a difference anymore.

It's not the quality of this idea that is the problem. It's the potential market. Either you embrace the idea of modelling, or you don't. There is almost no inbetween.


Think about the reasons why people buy the Axe or other modellers:
Flexibility, weight, low price (compared to having a collection of vintage amps), low noise, no maintenance, easy setup

You lose half of those advantages with a hybrid modeller.
 
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