My Live tone FRFR vs Cabs

yek said:
That’s not debatable.
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So basically, if a full range monitor is used in place of a guitar transducer, then it is NOT amp in the room.
If that's the case - then I agree there would be no debate. But there's more to it.

And you said 'listening'. I thought AITR also had something to do with feel when you're playing according to lots of folks?

@ethomas1013

Not a good idea to resort to insults. I'm trying to have a nuanced discussion here.
If that's not your cup of tea, simply bow out rather than calling people names.

Please do not assume me a troll or clueless. I am neither. I spent an entire career in the speaker/audio world.
I just don't find these sorts of issues so black and white. There's grey that's open to discussion - if you have an open mind.
 
Anyone have a frequency response curve on just the 12" LF transducer that's used in the CLR?
I'd like to see it side by side with the Celestion G12M curve.

a) Matchless SC30 tube head > direct box G12M IR > tube power amp > CLR
b) Fractal SC30 model > SS power amp > G12M

which one is AITM?

I'm not asking WHAT IS amp in the room. I'm asking which would sound more AITR to YOUR ears.
 
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Donnie B. said:
And you said 'listening'. I thought AITR also had something to do with feel when you're playing according to lots of folks?
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that’s part of the possible personal perception of AITR versus FRFR. Subjective matter and it doesn’t define whether a setup is AITR or not.
 
DLC86 said:
Pointless cuz the CLR has an internal crossover and a waveguide for the woofer
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Not pointless depending on where the crossover point is and what order the HP filter is.
Vast majority of the guitar signal will be below the crossover point anyway.

I asked for the transducer curve which has nothing to do with the enclosure.
1585923457650.jpeg

Re: waveguide
What are you referring to?
 
ethomas1013 said:
It's definitely not a MacGuffin...

It's really simple. And it has been explained many times in a way that nearly everyone agrees upon.

When playing/listening to an amp, you are hearing that amp as it sounds in the room. When playing through a FRFR monitor, with an IR, you are hearing the sound of a mic'd speaker cabinet as played through a studio monitor. It's not the same and never will be. Go to any recording studio and set your amp up in the studio, mic it, and listen to it in the control room. Then walk into the room with your amp and listen to that. It's not the same aural experience.

I love open-backed Fender combo amps. A closed back FRFR monitor using IR's is never going to sound like an open-backed combo amp - and this includes Far Field IRs. Physics wins.
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I am not sure if there's anything to discuss beyond this post.
You may like the tone coming out of an FRFR setup, that does not make it a AITR.

And I keep hearing that a lot of it is about the volume. I don't think it has anything to do with the AITR feel or response of the setup. A cabinet has directional variance in its frequency spectrum, and unless you are capturing near field and far-field responses and somehow were able to model it, it would not be AITR.

What is coming out of the FRFR is the sound of an amp mic'ed through a specific mic at a very specific position (typically near field - stuck right up the cabinet grill). It does not and cannot capture the speaker response variance based on direction, distance, environmental feedback etc etc.

Now we can debate how one might NOT want these variations, which is a valid opinion. FRFR setup IS a great setup for playing in front of large crowds because you can go straight to FOH.
But lets not call it AITR because you are not looking for AITR. My interpretation of an AITR is that it comes with all the issues of playing a Fender with your audience spread 180 degrees in front of you.
 
The first widely accepted digital modeler was arguably the Line 6 Flextone amp in 1998 followed right after by the first Pod.
That's over 20 years ago. I'll assume we agree on that.
The acronyms AITR and FRFR (from my recollection) both sprouted up as widely used terms in forum debates less than 5, and more like 2-3
years ago.

For the first 15 years of digital modelers/profilers I don't recall any marketing along the lines of:

Guaranteed to give you that 'standing in front of your stereo speakers listening to a recorded amp' experience!

So what gives that it's suppose to be understood as a given now?

Please help me if I'm remembering anything wrong.
The 70s have been catching up with me lately. :cool:
 
Donnie B. said:
Vast majority of the guitar signal will be below the crossover point anyway.
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Sure, cuz vast majority of the guitar signal is below 1.5-2Khz :rolleyes:
Donnie B. said:
I asked for the transducer curve which has nothing to do with the enclosure.
1585923457650.jpeg


Re: waveguide
What are you referring to?
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That big grey foam square, that's a horn (aka waveguide) for the woofer and that alters the frequency response as well as the dispersion pattern of the woofer
 
DLC86 said:
Sure, cuz vast majority of the guitar signal is below 1.5-2Khz :rolleyes:
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The high E string on a guitar is tuned to 329.63 Hz. 12th fret would be 659.26 and the 24th fret 1.32 Khz.

The energy required to reproduce a harmonic of 2.64 Khz is so small, even if the woofer was crossed over at 1.5 Khz with a 2nd order network, that's 12dB down at 3 Khz - a little more than half as loud. Ever wonder why guitar amplifiers don't use tweeters? (talking rock music) They don't need them.

So ya, the vast majority of guitar lives under 2K - the most common crossover point for a 2 way system.

That big grey foam square, that's a horn (aka waveguide) for the woofer and that alters the frequency response as well as the dispersion pattern of the woofer
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The plastic molded horn used for the tweeter is a wave guide, as noted by the horn pattern. The foam serves no purpose to the LF sound. The wooden baffle in this case is a boundary surface. Cutting a square over a round woofer, and obscuring a lot of surface space in the process, doesn't make much sense, other than to load the low end somewhat - not sure why you'd do it if you're going to be reproducing guitar sounds though.
 
Donnie B. said:
The high E string on a guitar is tuned to 329.63 Hz. 12th fret would be 659.26 and the 24th fret 1.32 Khz.

The energy required to reproduce a harmonic of 2.64 Khz is so small, even if the woofer was crossed over at 1.5 Khz with a 2nd order network, that's 12dB down at 3 Khz - a little more than half as loud. Ever wonder why guitar amplifiers don't use tweeters? (talking rock music) They don't need them.

So ya, the vast majority of guitar lives under 2K - the most common crossover point for a 2 way system.
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Ever heard of harmonics? Ever heard of distortion?
And even if you were right, what's the point? The CLR is a full range system, what should be the purpose of a tweeter if it didn't make a difference? If you put a high cut at 2 KHz you don't hear a difference? You'd better look for an audiologist in that case.

Donnie B. said:
The foam serves no purpose to the LF sound
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Ok, it's evident that you're just trying to argue endlessly without having a clue about some subjects. Bye and good luck with that 👋
 
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DLC86 said:
Ok, it's evident that you're just trying to argue endlessly without having a clue about some subjects. Bye and good luck with that 👋
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I'm not arguing. Do you want to have an open discussion or not? Maybe get your eyes opened a bit?
I'm trying to escape the madness here in the forum, not create friction. You shouldn't take it that way.

Please explain how a ~1" thick piece of open cell foam is going to affect any frequencies below 2,000 Hz.

(for the record, I've worked in speakers/audio since 1986 - my first boss https://soundmatters.com/soundmatters-announces-passing-of-founder-dr-godehard-guenther/)
 
Donnie B. said:
I'm not arguing. Do you want to have an open discussion or not? Maybe get your eyes opened a bit?
I'm trying to escape the madness here in the forum, not create friction. You shouldn't take it that way.
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Ignoring statements you're not able to reply anymore and continually shifting the discussion towards.. I don't know where, is called arguing in my book, not an "open discussion".
If you want to make a point just make it and we'll eventually discuss that, cuz I still haven't understood where you're headed with all these questions.
Donnie B. said:
Please explain how a ~1" thick piece of open cell foam is going to affect any frequencies below 2,000 Hz.
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Please explain how you make such assumptions without knowing the density of the material and the actual thickness, since you work in speakers/audio you should know that the frequencies affected depend on those two things.
If you want explanations about how a CLR works just search those made by the guy who designed it (Jay Mitchell), you should easily find it on google.
 
DLC86 said:
Please explain how you make such assumptions without knowing the density of the material and the actual thickness, since you work in speakers/audio you should know that the frequencies affected depend on those two things.
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Best I can tell, and after reading all about the CLR (fancy acronym for co-axial btw), the foam
is used to prevent rattles and/or minimize high frequency deflections off of the baffle.

The length of a 2,000 Hz soundwave is 6-3/4". 1,000 Hz is twice that.

Whether the foam is 1/8" or 2" thick doesn't matter - nor does the density at those frequencies.

I am not ignoring anything. I'm reading every word. And I'm not shifting the discussion away from anything.
I maintain that AITR means a lot more than just literally 'a guitar amplifier in a room'.
It's a pretty stupid term if that's all it means. Same for CATR.
What's next? GOMS - guitar on my shoulder? 🤪
 
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Look at the black lines in the two graphs in this link, the first is the frequency response of a guitar speaker on axis and the second the response of the same speaker with a "mitchell donut" (3/4 thick) in front of it.
In the second graph there's a 3-4 dB attenuation around 1.2-1.3 KHz, and a boost in some areas below 100 Hz.

But, I'll ask it again: what does this have to do with AITR?
And what's the point since the CLR is a full-range speaker and the signal of a distorted guitar can easily go beyond 20000 Hz (when it isn't filtered by a speaker or IR)?
 
DLC86 said:
But, I'll ask it again: what does this have to do with AITR?
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I'll take physics over marketing graphs for the record. Was it you recently who stated 'Physics Wins"?

I maintain that AITR is not determined on whether I use a guitar cabinet or a 2-way full range monitor.

You've mentioned distortion a few times now. Are you saying that prior to FRFR we weren't hearing the
full range of guitar distortion on stage?
 
DLC86 said:
Ok, I'm out
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Too bad. At least answer the distortion question.
Like I said, you're the one who brought it up.
It'd be nice if you explained why.

Also, the picture of the CLR foam doesn't look to be the Mitchell Donut.
 
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Donnie B. said:
I maintain that AITR is not determined on whether I use a guitar cabinet or a 2-way full range monitor.
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It would be helpful if you gave your definition of AITR. You’ll have to excuse me for using non-scientific terminology, but from what I understand, an impulse response of a cabinet represents the frequency spectrum at a very specific point in space. if we, hypothetically, assume that a guitar cabinet is in a room with no walls, thereby eliminating the perceived reflections of sound, the fact that I usually sit about 6 feet away from the cabinet would have an effect.

I’ll try to put it another way. Let’s say, instead of an IR, we were theoretically able to model a speaker in a cabinet, that would probably be AITR by my definition. It’s quite similar to the difference between an AxeFX and a Kemper. Not strictly but I hope you get my point.

Id be glad to be proven wrong, that all my ears are hearing is a placebo effect.
 
I’ll say it again:

Amp/Cab in the room is a guitar cab in a room. A FRFR with IRs is not Amp/Cab in the room.

A guitar cab produces the audio differently than a full range speaker does.

If you want the amp/cab in a room sound and feel, use a real guitar cab.

That said, many people enjoy the tone/feel of full range speakers and get the oomph or feel that they need from this type of setup. There is nothing wrong or less fulfilling by doing this to those people.

This thread is confusing the fact of cab in the room setup (literally a cab has to be in the room) vs the opinion of liking one or the other better.
 
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