My High Output Pickups do not feel like it...

zenaxe

Fractal Fanatic
Hey Guys,

I have a number of guitars with decently high output humbuckers (example: Duncan Distortion, PRS HFS). It seems like a lot of relatively high gain amps, Cameron High, SLO Lead, etc, do not feel or sound like they are being driven very hard by my guitars even with very high preamp gain settings on the amp models. I have Axe input levels set and input 1 set to left on the I/O page and am going in the front of the unit. I have tried messing with cab models.

It *feels* like playing a metal amp with single coils (problem at the front end).

Any ideas for getting things to set up or stuff to check? I don't think I was using a boost pedal for 80s metal rhythms with the SLO model on the Ultra, LOL. I guess I will dig out a new cable to check for a start.
 
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Do you have the input level maxed?

Maybe check your gate settings and the input impedance setting?

My bucker guitars seems to drive the input fine.
 
I have the same problem with the camerons (except the atomica), i have to turn on boost, sat, and turn input drive pretty high to get it to sound like its really driven.
 
Do you have the input level maxed?

Maybe check your gate settings and the input impedance setting?

My bucker guitars seems to drive the input fine.

Re Impedance: Thanks for suggesting this. I will check it out. Had no idea it was even a parameter. Just looked at the manual. I assume if auto is not giving desired results, maybe set it to the highest value, 1M?

Re Input Lvl: Yep, I can get some red @ 3 o'clock but have tried it dimed. If I understand the manual/wiki correctly, though, it sounds like the input trim does not affect the signal level going into the amp (unity gain)....

I have the same problem with the camerons (except the atomica), i have to turn on boost, sat, and turn input drive pretty high to get it to sound like its really driven.

Thanks... Maybe I'm too focused on those amps... I've been blown away by the CCV clips/demos I have seen on the net, so under the assumption that those models would be a good starting point, I have been tweaking them but the Atomica sounds anemic for me as well, so maybe not.

Thanks for the inputs guys. Ihave no doubt it is probably just something noobishly stupid I am doing.
 
I use 1M or 1M + cap depending on the guitar.

Just use your ear and see what sounds best. Auto may be the best for your rig in the end.
 
Remember that ohms don't really mean squat when it comes to actual "output" of a pickup. It's very possible for a 9K pickup to be louder than a 14k, or even 16.4k pickup like the Duncan JB. Output has more to do with the millivolts it produces.
Actual turns counts of wire on the bobbin, combines with magnetic strength will mean quite a lot. Let make two humbuckers, one using 42awg wire, 6000 turns per coil for a combined 9k. Lets make a 43awg humbucker, 5000 turns for the same 9k. The 42awg will be noticeably louder. A 43awg @ 12k 6000 turns will have the same output as the 42awg 9k.

Now lets make two more humbuckers, each using the same wire gauge and turn counts. Lets wind one more evenly and packed together - layer wound. Lets spread the other apart, and build up the coils quicker. The one with the physically smaller coils will produce more output, due to more coil being deeper in the magnetic field.
 
Remember that ohms don't really mean squat when it comes to actual "output" of a pickup. It's very possible for a 9K pickup to be louder than a 14k, or even 16.4k pickup like the Duncan JB. Output has more to do with the millivolts it produces.
Actual turns counts of wire on the bobbin, combines with magnetic strength will mean quite a lot. Let make two humbuckers, one using 42awg wire, 6000 turns per coil for a combined 9k. Lets make a 43awg humbucker, 5000 turns for the same 9k. The 42awg will be noticeably louder. A 43awg @ 12k 6000 turns will have the same output as the 42awg 9k.

Now lets make two more humbuckers, each using the same wire gauge and turn counts. Lets wind one more evenly and packed together - layer wound. Lets spread the other apart, and build up the coils quicker. The one with the physically smaller coils will produce more output, due to more coil being deeper in the magnetic field.

That is seriously interesting! Do you have any book or reputable websites where I could read up on this?
 
To rule out any problems try using the rear input. Set Input 1 Left Select to Rear and plug into Input 1 Left on the back.

Other things to check:
- Global Amp Gain is 0 dB
- Input 1 Mode is set to Left Only
- Noise Gate isn't set overly aggressive (turn off as a check)
- Global Power Amp modeling is On
 
That is seriously interesting! Do you have any book or reputable websites where I could read up on this?

Not really, but 15 years of winding and designing pickups full time has given me a fair bit of knowledge on the subject. I'm one of two people that are very largely responsible for the Boutique market explosion since 1998 - the other being Lollar. Most of the small guys you see winding now are due to the teachings and guidance of Lollar or myself. There is a pickup maker's forum that was originally started for me in 1999, and a book called Animal Magnetism that discusses design, and the Lollar book that's out of print so far as I know. A lot of secrets are well kept, though. A good book called "Pickups: Winding, and Magnet: And the Guitar Became Electric" - but it doesn't go a whole lot into actual design. Mostly history. We're mentioned in it :)
I know of many very low impedance lap steel pickups - down to 3 or 4k - that will blow any high output humbucker out of the water, it terms of sheer output. And the cool thing? They're very clean!
 
Re Input Lvl: Yep, I can get some red @ 3 o'clock but have tried it dimed. If I understand the manual/wiki correctly, though, it sounds like the input trim does not affect the signal level going into the amp (unity gain)....

That's what it says, but it sure does. More is meatier. I run it around 80% for all my guitars, which have medium to medium-high output. The red clipping thing has never been a factor for me, though 100% seems too much. Like it saturates it.
 
Obvious maybe but check your cable - I mention it as I just had an experience with an expensive Planet Waves guitar cable I'd been using. Actually I have 2 of them and inadvertently started using an alternate one that I'd not used in some time. The sound with that cable was perfect - no static or noise of any kind, but, most of my gain was gone - crunches became clean and hi-gain became crunch. Since the sound quality seemed good I started checking for issues in the Axe Fx but could not find anything. Of course I checked the cable last and voila! : switching to the alternate cable brought my patches back to life. I was quite surprised that a faulty cable (which looks physically mint) would only show itself with reduced throughput and no associated additional noise or crackling. Live and learn.
 
That's what it says, but it sure does. More is meatier. I run it around 80% for all my guitars, which have medium to medium-high output. The red clipping thing has never been a factor for me, though 100% seems too much. Like it saturates it.

You are overdriving the input. Once the red LED starts lighting you are approaching input saturation. 80% with a humbucker guitar is likely clipping the input. The input has a soft-clip circuit so that you don't get that nasty digital clipping you would get overdriving an A/D. It is musical but technically you are operating the unit incorrectly.
 
Not really, but 15 years of winding and designing pickups full time has given me a fair bit of knowledge on the subject. I'm one of two people that are very largely responsible for the Boutique market explosion since 1998 - the other being Lollar. Most of the small guys you see winding now are due to the teachings and guidance of Lollar or myself. There is a pickup maker's forum that was originally started for me in 1999, and a book called Animal Magnetism that discusses design, and the Lollar book that's out of print so far as I know. A lot of secrets are well kept, though. A good book called "Pickups: Winding, and Magnet: And the Guitar Became Electric" - but it doesn't go a whole lot into actual design. Mostly history. We're mentioned in it :)
I know of many very low impedance lap steel pickups - down to 3 or 4k - that will blow any high output humbucker out of the water, it terms of sheer output. And the cool thing? They're very clean!

Do you mind if I send you a private message? I have a few queries regarding a self built 8 string that I may need new pickups custom designed for.

Plus, I don't want to clog the thread with off subject queries and info.
 
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