My general thoughts on Axe Edit and the Fractal Approach.

Ant Music

Fractal Fanatic
There a many different devices and even Apps that now compete with Fractal. Some of them look and sound amazing and offer a variety of pros and cons with their own individual appeal. Having been a long time Fractal user I find it difficult to ignore some of the different directions and advancements made by other companies etc.

Whilst Fractal has well and truly set the standard for tones and modelling accuracy I think User Interface is something that that has taken a back seat. I'm thankful that we now have a robust and stable Axe Edit but I have seen a number of other devices and apps that are far more immediate and intuitive.

One thing I find disappointing is the fact that when modelling a device like a Drive pedal, an Amp or a Delay the Axe Fx displays a generic set of controls for tone shaping across all modelled devices (particular to that device type). For instance all of the Amps have the exact same set of controls available.

When trying to emulate the authentic tone and behaviour of a particular device I often find myself just wanting access the actual controls that are native to the real device and nothing more. I often feel the wide and varied generic controls are of course incredibly useful but I'd prefer to have an additional tab in Axe Edit listed native which would give ONLY the controls that are specific to the actual device. Perhaps even an idealised graphic of the device as is seen in the BIAS apps would help to make the experience of tweaking far more intuitive.

Of course deeper parameters control should be available but there is a tangible barrier between clicking and scrolling on a computer screen and using familiar real world hardware. It is far too easy at least for me and others I've spoken to, to get overloaded and bombarded with options. Whilst it is easy to say "Just use your ears" someone less confident in their tweaking can wonder if they are taking the right steps toward achieving their tone and begin to second guesse their own inuition and thus down the rabbit hole you go. One can easily think they are doing something wrong in the face of so many options.

I find it much easier to get positive results quickly when starting out with an accurate model, (which the Axe Fx has) and a limited number of real parameters native to the device. in the example of an Amp Block; If you can't get the desired tone from the modelled device with the native controls then perhaps it's more likely this is not the Amp for you and not a result of hap hazard tweaking. Move on and try another one instead of menu diving and an endless and thoroughly unenjoyable tweakfest.

I think ultimately the Axe Fx is an incredibly complex and capable tool but having confidence in using such a complex instrument is not always so easy to come by. By providing a list of native parameters it is much easier for one to have confidence that they are achieving the authentic tones of the device as if it were there infront of them with the added bonus of deeper controls should they desire them. Sometimes, less is more.
 
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This is somewhere in between 'review' and 'wish list'. Like that you have an opinion, but specific requests are looked at often in 'Wish List'.

And to comment, this is somewhat philosophical. The Axe gives you MORE options than exist in real life...that may be daunting, but this is up to the user to ignore or tweak all the other options...this is a long debated topic. Most oft for the extra 'stuff' to play with. I rarely do (and have great success,) but others live in this world constantly.

R
 
You're only addressing one aspect of what I'm getting at.

I've known many talented musicians excited by they hype surrounding FAS products (usually at my urging) go and order an Axe Fx 2 only to put them for sale on eBay only a matter of weeks or months later because of the learning curve and bombardment of options. I think this is a terrible shame and serious thought ought be given toward improving the editing experience and making it more immediate and real.

I guess the big difference between how you and I think about this is that I'm almost never trying to "emulate ... a device" but create a sound.

That's fine for you, but some perhaps even most people are looking for "The" sound. The sound of this person or this or that particular device or at least let that be the starting point for them to getting a sound they like.

If one is struggling to get a particular amp to sound like the real world counterpart then they are likely to second guesse their efforts. Having the option to tweak only the controls that exist on the given device narrows things down much quicker so that someone can determine if they are on the right track with the chosen model or not (be it a Drive pedal, Amp, Delay, Chorus, Flanger etc). This is much more like having the real thing in front of you.

I think realistically people tend to prefer the immediacy of real devices but the convenience of digital emulations. The trick from that point is to make the User Interface intuitive and straight forward. It seems there are other options for digital modelling and effects that do this side of things better than Fractal is currently. I'm not taking a shot at Fractal, I'm just telling it how it is.

I've long waved the flag for FAS but more recently, as other players join the game progress is being made in other areas. I love FAS but I think they could well learn a few things from some of the other developers about ease of use and intuitive control as other developers have shown that it really can be more immediate and straight forward, or more complicated if desired.

When I first saw the BIAS Apps I was floored. Even though the Fractal no doubt sounds better, I couldn't help but wish so badly that the Axe Fx could be so straight forward. A tab for native controls in Axe Edit (perhaps even the default tab) would help people get in the ball park much quicker.

I've never thought it was helpful to have a whole heap of parameters that don't exist on the original device unless it was specifically desired. I find it tends to muddy the water. Not having a simple list of real world parameters that exist on the real device being modelled takes the user further away from the real tangible experience of using real music gear.
 
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This comes up every now and again and I understand the sentiment, but I probably have been using the FAS stuff too long to even consider doing it differently. The mere suggestion that it isn't intuitive is just bizarre to me because it is just such a logical device in my opinion. That doesn't mean that it's simple, but I think that they've done a fantastic job of it making sense.

At the end of the day no one is ever 100% happy either way. You could limit the options in the name of "realism" and you'd have half the masses complaining about a lack of features and versatility and then you've got the other half that want it stripped down and simplified because there are too many options. Hell, I'd be willing to bet that some people want even more knobs on this thing. :)

I honestly think that FAS has done a pretty good job of making the first screen on most blocks reflect most of the basic controls that you would see on each device if you had it sitting in front of you. Some blocks they do have extra stuff, but I think that is more a matter of real estate and layout than about trying to force anyone into going tweak crazy. Any screen after the first one gets you into the guts with a virtual soldering iron, screwdrivers, and a box of spare components. There really is no reason to dig into those pages until you really need to at which point it's better to have them available than not IMHO.

You said probably the single most important thing that I learned a long time ago though; if the amp you select isn't getting you close in a relatively short amount of time than it's probably best to move onto another model because even with all of the power of the advanced tweaking it will only get you so far. I think that part of the problem that people have is that they hear something somewhere and think that they know what was used to make that sound and that they have to have the exact same rig that they think was used. This is especially true of recordings where you have to factor in the mix, the likelihood of multiple amps and tracks, mics, consoles, offboard effects, EQ, etc. Even if you know what amp was used by the time its gone through that signal path it's just simply not going to be an accurate representation of the original rig.

Then again instances like that is where a tool like the AxeFXII can make the difference because given time you can learn how to wield that mighty hammer of in-depth control.
 
You could limit the options in the name of "realism" and you'd have half the masses complaining about a lack of features and versatility and then you've got the other half that want it stripped down and simplified because there are too many options.

I thought I'd been pretty clear that I am only suggesting an additional tab in Axe Edit that has native controls ONLY (perhaps even make it the default tab). No other changes to the other tabs or parameters. You would still have the other parameters for deep editing. There is no way I'd suggest changing them.
 
Well that depends upon what you are trying to achieve. If you are just trying to find anything you like then you can do what ever you like. If you are trying to get an authentic tone of the particular piece of gear being modelled then it is much easier to zero in if there are not a whole bunch of extraneous parameters that don't exist on the unit.

When there are soooo many options it is easy for people to get lost among them and it is often off putting to many people too. If they know that parameters a, b and c are the only knobs on the real device then they won't feel the need to try parameters x,y and z to get a quick authentic representation of the real thing. But of course x,y and z are there if you choose to experiment.

What I am proposing is the best of both worlds. If you want the real deal and wanna get it quick the native parameters will get you there easily. If you wanna get deep with you can do that too. What is so bad about that?

The whole reason I've bothered to post this is because some people DO get put off by things the way they are and other manufacturers are making devices that are far more immediately appealing and easy to use. That is where things are at.

It seems whenever I suggest something to improve the Axe Fx the Fractal fan boys and FAS employees play duck hunt and shoot down ideas and continue insisting on keeping things the way they are. If what I am suggesting were implemented then it would hurt no one but it would make things easier and more intuitive to use. Fractal could make improvements in usability if they wanted to or felt the need to.
 
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Suggestions can have counter-arguments without people being called fanboys. This is a discussion forum. We are discussing.

This idea has been brought up time and time again, so it's definitely something more than one person wants. It's funny to me how some people get so hellbent on one advanced parameter saying it's the only way to get a good sound, while others don't want anything than what's on the original amp.

I mean, if some amp has no Mid knob but you do reduce the mids on the Axe model, are you really ruining things? You might just EQ in post production anyway...

Obviously I don't feel the need for this request, but I don't influence what FAS does so there's no need to worry if I share my opinion :)
 
I'll bet if Cliff announced he was adding a native parameters tab in Axe Edit most people would applaud his genius whislt some others would simply not use it. If I suggest it people shoot it down.

Ultimately what ever form improvements were to take, there are a lot of improvements that can and should be made to the UI. It's one thing to say "I don't have a problem with it the way it is" but if it were made easier and more intuitive would that not be better. Do you not think it could be made better and easier to use?

Unfortunately a lot of people who are not used to studio grade gear can be put off by the less than tactile nature of some devices.

If you could make improvements to the Axe Fx 2 platform, what would they be?
 
Hello, I don't share all of your opinions Ant, but I think your idea of a "native" tab in Axe Edit (only ?) is a good idea.For the rest I'm damn happy that everything is there, having tried some floor pedals for travel use, I generally find they have too limited parameters.

A possible reason when people sell Axe Fx within 2 weeks IMHO it's either that they are simply not made for digital devices (which is not a flaw, it's just a difference), or maybe do not use the Afx in FRFR configuration at first hand, like it comes off the shelf. For the latter point FAS could reserve a few patches, or a separately downloadable BANK A that contains patches adapted to power amp/speaker, Afx/linear pwr amp/speaker combinations. New users naturally will not be searching in this area for understanding why they can't get a good sound out of any device. Try to explain what is an "Infinite Impulse Response" to any random "middle of the road" guitar player or your wife and see how you're getting gazed at by most of them...it's not "common knowledge" you know.
 
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The fact that I don't feel the need for this idea - the same way I've felt with many times when this idea was brought up before - has no correlation to what I think of your ideas personally, nor does it show that I think the Axe can't be improved in general.

If Cliff does add this, I'd say "woah cool, many people have been asking for this; but is there a way to turn it off." People definitely don't follow Cliff blindly. Many challenge him here daily. Some of it leads to improvements, most of it is just a difference in opinion.

I personally don't think changing the display and layout of knobs to match the original amp offerings is "easier and more intuitive." If I want to turn the Mid knob, I go to the same place in each amp type now. If it started disappearing on me and I'd have to go to some other tab to find it, to me, that seems less intuitive and not easier.

This really has nothing to do with you or the fact that you suggested it. I'm glad you did though, because it shows that it is a popular idea and might cause further discussion and sparking even more ideas.

I teach people how to use the Axe and other FAS products. I don't really spend much time thinking how it could be, because I have to spend my time learning and teaching how it is.
 
I wish the controls were the same as the real amps and efx too.

I've found so many new good sounds from the specific amp model threads that @yek is doing. By learning what controls on the Fractal map to the real amplifier.

I do this with other gear too. For example, I prefer plugins in Pro Tools that look like their hardware counterpart. The UAD LA-2A compressor is a great example. Just a couple of controls and a VU meter. Easy to use but sounds great too. The sound could be accomplished with pages of generic controls to setup the attack, release, time constant, vu ballistics, transformer saturation, etc., but why present that to the user as the only interface?

When I'm in creative mode, visual cues keep me in the zone. Dealing with numbers and calculations switch my brain into another mode.
 
I have to agree with Ant Musics' original post here, what I got from it is that maybe a tab that has only the original controls for that device would be a great starting point for some. I am a tweaker by nature, so having all of the other parameter adjustments is without a doubt a huge plus for me and a major reason that I purchased an AxeFX. I am at this point, as a newbe to the FAS world slightly overwhelmed with all of the flexibility that is available only because I want to get it right! I can see right off the bat how using the AxeFX in the studio will be awesome, I'm working right now with trying to dial the unit in for live use, as the center of my rig. understanding Axe edit is going to be paramount to my success there and maybe a "basic" tab to start with would be nice. At any rate, I think the gear is awesome, just a little bit overwhelming right out of the gate.
 
so at first when i read this i was just thinking "don't use the advanced controls" but after reading i guess I'm understanding more that you'd rather have a tab with only the original controls as on the actual amp. So if it's a 3 knob amp you only have the 3 knobs on that tab? If so, I can see the usefulness of something like that.
 
For me, I think of it as an AxeEdit issue. As the models become more and more authentic, I would like the AxeEdit interface to become more and more authentic (like the real amps).

Not advocating removing anything from AxeEdit. Just giving an optional authentic amp / stomp box view.
 
A graphical representation of the real amp is not necessary for me.
I would like to see a simple marking on the controls that are on the amp too.

That would be great.

I personally hate skeuomorphism in UI. That LA-2A compressor mentioned earlier, completely baffles and disorients me by lack of controls I'm used to. And software plugins that try to look like real amps, but cannot make them look exactly like originals due to copyright reasons or some such nonsense confuse me more than they help. Actually, I would prefer descriptive names to vague references to amps I've never used and never will. Like, what the hell does "Train wreck" mean? Is it an umpteenth boutique rendition of some 1857 Marshall amp? Or something useful? I have no idea, so I just avoid it. And how helpful would it be if knobs would be called something like "Contour" (manufacturers just love stupid meaningless names)?

But that's just me, I know. Surely, references to real amps help sell better.
 
I totally agree with the OP's original post, and have also mentioned this very thing in the past (an AE dedicated tab with a graphic and only the real amp controls). Also, I know many could care less about amp graphics, but having several Marshall amps, I relate to the front panel controls and would really like to see a similar interface in AE.
 
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